Feedback on New Design

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Thanks to Phil, Andy, and Pete for their suggestions on chord progressions! I created a new design for my book, and I wanted to see if any of you have any comments/suggestions for improving the design before I go through all the rest of the keys. I've added a section on chord progressions, so readers can see some ways that the different chords can relate to each other in Major and minor keys. I've added both the Roman numerals for the chords in their Major key in bold, and their minor key in italics. Lastly, I spread out the mandolin fretboard on the Pentatonic Jig so that it more closely mimics an actual mando fretboard.

What I'd like to know from you fellow theory buffs is:
1. Do the labels for the different sections make sense?
2. Are the chords I chose a reasonable selection that people might see in jam sessions? (I put chords that fall outside the key in bold).
3. Does the mandolin spacing look reasonable, and read reasonably well.



Thanks for any feedback you can provide!

Scott

[McBenet]

Would like to have seen it, but my Windows wouldn't open it.

Barry

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Barry,

I changed the file to a PDF, so hopefully it can be read easier. Thanks for letting me know!

Scott

[Phil Goodson]

Scott,
The headings look fine, but I couldn't quite figure out what you meant by the Major / relative minor heading on the left. The Roman numerals after the slashes don't look right to me. Maybe I'm just missing something. (e.g.: I / III , ii / iv , .....)

["Umm, fish?"]

Looks like you are missing a mighty big chord progression: ii, V, I.

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Thanks for your feedback! I've changed a few of the progressions, and added the ii V I (thanks, Andy--I'm planning on making a Jazz Edition at a later date). Here's the redesign based on your suggestions. I've added a section to the Chord Jig that shows you which columns to use to make whichever chord you desire. e.g. Major chords are built from notes in the 1, 3, 5 columns; dom7 chords are made from notes in the 1, 3, 5, b7 columns, etc.

Thanks again for letting me know what you think!

Scott

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Phil,

The Roman numerals show each chord's number in the Major (in bold-face), and then relative minor key (in italics), respectively. So, a G Major chord is the I chord in the key of G Major, but it's a III chord in the key of E minor. An E minor chord is the vi chord in the key of G Major, but it's the i chord in the key of E minor. I made a quick table to try to clarify what I'm trying to say.

----------------- G Major Key----------E minor Key
G Major--------------I--------------------- III
A minor--------------ii-----------------------iv
B minor--------------iii----------------------V
(V chord often played as a Major chord in minor keys)
C Major--------------IV----------------------VI
D Major--------------V----------------------VII
E minor--------------vi----------------------i
F# dim--------------vii----------------------ii

Hope that's at least clearer than mud! :-)

Scott

[Ed Goist]

Hi Scott:
Looks like a nice improvement on an already useful learning tool.
I really need a good resource for learning the fretboard and getting my head around chord theory.
Please let us know when the upgrade is complete.

[Mike Bunting]

You list the chords in the key of G, yet it you show the chord tone functions based on the scale named after the tonic of the chord. For example on the Em chord you show the E as the 1, the G as the flat 3 and the B as the 5. It seems confusing to me since the column on the left are the chords of the harmonized G scale. I think that it would be more useful to show how these chords are built from the G scale, the E being the 6th note of the G scale, the G is of course the 1 of the scale and the B is the 3 of the G scale. Your explanation works since you are describing how the Em is derived from the E scale but the confusion stems from the fact that you line it up with the chords of the harmonized G scale.
Hope this is vaguely clear, I can't seem to word it better. Perhaps someone more lucid will chime in.

I just searched the net and found this that explains what I mean, scroll down a bit to the charts

http://www.coniferguitar.com/Scales_...armonized.html

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Mike,

I think I've got what you're saying, but the Chord Jig shows two keys simultaneously, since one is G Major and the other is E minor, the relative minor of G Major. The bold set of Roman numerals from the Chord Jig shows the chord names for the key of G Major, and the italicized set shows the chord names for the key of E minor. If you play chord progressions from the left and middle boxes on the "Some G Major Chord Progressions" and "More G Major Chord Progressions" boxes, the Roman numerals shown are based on the Major key's Roman numerals, since they are in the key of G Major. These bold-face Roman numerals are the ones I think you were referring to when you said, "I think that it would be more useful to show how these chords are built from the G scale, the E being the 6th note of the G scale, the G is of course the 1 of the scale and the B is the 3 of the G scale."

For the right box, "Some E minor chord progressions", the Roman numerals shown are based on the minor key's Roman numerals, since these are in the key of E minor. The cool part is, if you learn the chords from the Major key, then you know the chords from that key's relative minor as well. The only difference is the order the chords are played in. Songs in E minor tend to have a sad sound, and song's in G Major tend to have happier sounds.

Well, that's my attempt at explaining why I "line(d) it up with the chords of the harmonized G scale", since both G Major and E minor utilize the same chords. [Except that songs played in the relative minor often have the V chord (the iii chord from the Major scale) played as a Major chord- B MAJOR in the key of E minor].

Please let me know if that cleared things up, or made them even muddier! :-)

Thanks for the feedback!

Scott

["Umm, fish?"]

Scott--I like what you are doing. Good job, man!

[Alex Orr]

I hate to be the naysayer here, but the layout seems really busy and confusing. I'm just wondering what's wrong with learning the scales, roman numbers and the corresponding chords? I applaud your intentions, but it just seems like there are much more useful and simpler ways to learn the Nashville Number System and its relationships to chord changes and keys.

[Mike Bunting]

I hate to be the naysayer here, but the layout seems really busy and confusing. I'm just wondering what's wrong with learning the scales, roman numbers and the corresponding chords? I applaud your intentions, but it just seems like there are much more useful and simpler ways to learn the Nashville Number System and its relationships to chord changes and keys.

I think that is a more succinct version of what I was trying to say.

[Phil Goodson]

Yeah, I vote with those thoughts. I've found it much easier to improv since I started thinking of the V chord being made up of 5-7-9(2) and six(m) chord being made of 6-8(1)-10(3) notes instead of 1-3-5 for each. Etc...

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Thank you all for the feedback. Alex's comment, "I'm just wondering what's wrong with learning the scales, roman numbers and the corresponding chords?" is exactly what Fretboard Toolboxes are designed to do. I haven't seen other places that show those three critical ideas Alex pointed out all on a single page for each Major and corresponding relative minor key. I completely agree with the sentiment that the Fretboard Toolbox pages can seem "busy", but it's just because they include Major and minor pentatonic scales, complete Major scales, natural minor scales, Roman numerals for each chord (Nashville Numbers) in both Major and relative minor keys, and how to build each chord that belongs within a given Major and relative minor key all on a single page. When you can see all of those ideas in a single place, and once you can navigate the format, you can decode tons of music ideas that can have a profound impact on your playing.

In any case, I really appreciate the feedback from you all and I just completed the new Original Mandolin Print Edition and E-Book; so if any of you who posted above would like a free copy of the E-Book as a token of my appreciation, just send me a private message here with your email address and I'll be glad to send you one. (They're under 6MB, and require a PDF reader to open).

Thanks again,

Scott

[Bob Bronow]

Scott,

I'd just like to thank you for all of your hard work. I've played guitar for over 30 years but never got much into theory. Since I picked up (and fell in love with) the mandolin, I've been really wanting to learn theory.

Everyone thinks differently and I think we are all looking for the one thing that will 'click' in our brains.

I applaud you for jumping into the ring. I've spent a good amount of time just going over your Gmaj / Emin page. I know that in time it will click!

Bob

[Chip Booth]

Scott, I seriously applaud your efforts for sure, and I mean only to add constructive criticism. I have to be honest I know this particular theory like the back of my hand and I still had to spend a few minutes figuring out what you are getting at with this chart. It seems like charts that try to get as much information in one diagram as possible often fail to communicate simple ideas clearly.

When I teach I use similar diagrams but I build them up slowly, only giving a small set of information until the student fully grasps it (such as only the harmonized major scale in triads) then I extend it to include sevenths, then ninths, etc. Then I dive into the relative minor... In a book you could perhaps accomplish this with a series of charts, starting simple and becoming more complex as you turn the page, or using transparent pages that overlap each other adding new information.

Granted I don't have any idea what additional information you will include with this chart, but one thing that seems odd to me is that you include non-key chords in your progression list and add those notes in the area at the top (except the C# note which you use in the II chord). Again I assume the idea of this is to teach about keys, how they are built and how the resulting chords are used in progressions. Adding non-key chords in to the mix at this stage seems like extra information the user is unlikely to be ready to assimilate. When I teach I don't talk about non-key chords at all until the student is comfortable with the basics of the key. Then I have a discussion about them, and group them into what I call "common exceptions to the standard keys" including things like the II, III, VI and bVII chords, and the V in minor. My take on this is that a chart that is complicated enough to include most of the common possibilities is too complicated for a learner to understand, and may be unnecessary for someone who is far enough along to understand it.

I see in your minor progressions chart the progressions that includes the standard v chord have the v chord in bold as though it a substitution, when the minor v not a substitution at all, it is the "correct" chord in the key, rather the exception to the rule is the major V chord.

I know it is just my style, and others disagree with me, but I don't teach pentatonic scales first. I like the 4 and 7 too much to leave them out.

[Patrick Hull]

I think it may depend on how the individual "looks at things" or how our individual minds work. That having been said, I like it a lot. I'd like to have a chart for all the keys. Well done.

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Chip brings up a lot of great points, and I greatly appreciate the time he took to give such detailed feedback. The kind of teaching technique he is talking about is called "scaffolding", which is undeniably best-practice in getting people to methodically build their framework for knowledge. (I've been a high school teacher for over a decade). I think the problem lies in the way that I have not effectively communicated the utility of Fretboard Toolboxes, as I see them, which is that they are designed to be a reference to help people decode music, and not to be used as a stand-alone book to teach how to play from the ground up. The lessons that I've had in music have often been filled with frustrations of trying to visualize the ideas that were second nature to the great musicians from whom I've had lessons. I designed Fretboard Toolboxes to help me better visualize those ideas that caused me so much confusion- here's a couple of examples:

1. I wondered how people could figure out songs "on the fly". I remember asking a roommate in college the chords of a certain song, and he figured it out within seconds of listening to it. Now I understand that the song was just a simple I-V-IV progression, but at the time, watching him, it felt like he was using black magic. :-)

2. I could not figure out how people could solo along with songs they were listening to for the first time. Now, I can see that they just were listening for the song's root, and then they knew that if the song had a happy sound they would use complete or pentatonic Major scales, and if it had a sad sound (was in a minor key), they would use natural, harmonic, or pentatonic minor scales.

3. Chip mentioned being perplexed by why I would include "non-key chords" in the books, which I completely understand. The reason I did this, though, was because I was utterly confused why some songs in G Major, for example, would have an F Major chord (a flat-VII); why some songs in G Major would have a G-B7-E7-A7-D7 progression- these are just in a Circle of Fifths (or fourths?) progression, with B7 being the V chord in E Major, the E7 being the V chord in A Major, the A7 being the V chord in D Major, and the D7 leading back to the G Major root, since D7 is the V chord in G Major. And I could not figure out how people could get the achingly sad sound of moving from a IV (Major) to a iv (minor), chord. I just wanted to be able to see these unique chord changes, so I'd know how to get those cool sounds in any key.

4. I could never figure out how to memorize chord positions up the fretboard because I did not know which notes made up each chord. Once I could see the notes that make up each chord, and once I learned that these notes are the same for every instrument, then I figured out that all I have to do is be able to visualize the fretboard of any instrument, and then I could build the chords I wanted to play on practically any instrument that you can make chords on.

I know that this method is not for everyone, but I can say that I could not play a single chord on mandolin, 5-string banjo, tenor banjo, ukulele, or even piano before I created this way of visualizing some of the big ideas of music. All of the books definitely have a learning curve, but the fun part for me is that once I understood a way to visualize these ideas from music theory on guitar (my first instrument), it allowed me to pick up lots of other instruments.

Thanks again for all of your feedback! I can't tell you how much I value the opinions, both positive and negative, of the incredible musicians that comprise the Mandolin Cafe community!

Scott Sharp

PS Like Chip, I also love the 4 and 7 notes, which are included on each key's page, but I wanted to highlight the pentatonic scales because they provide people such instantaneous positive feedback since they all sound so good together. Players can add the 4 and 7 notes after they gain more confidence with the five notes of the pentatonic, that like a golden retriever, are so forthcoming with unconditional affection. :-)

[Chip Booth]

Scott's description of the Toolbox as a reference tool rather than a teaching method does much to alleviate my concerns. I look forward to seeing the finished product!

["Umm, fish?"]

I'm enjoying it, too. I'd certainly like to see an expanded version with explanations of the concepts, but I understand that you are going for a guide sheet and not trying to write a textbook.

[A 4]

I recently bought the old form of the fretboard toolbox, and I use it as a reference. I tend to keep it open when I'm playing from sheet music, as I am trying to learn my scales better, and build intuition on which doublestops I can use, etc.

I like the new version. The biggest change is the loss of the fretboard layout chart, which is fine - it's repeated on every page, and the pentatonic layout has at least every other note if you need to figure it out. That seems like an good tradeoff for the chord progressions chart. I like the addition of the minor key chord numbers in addition to the major key, along with the the chord progressions, that is a good addition.

I don't understand everything, though. What's that D# doing in the chord jig? After some head scratching, it looks like it is there because the minor key progression i-V-i is more common that i-v-i? I'll believe that is true, but it throws of the internal consistency of the presentation a bit. I guess, though All right, but that kind of throws off the internal consistency for me. On the other hand, I didn't know that minor songs often have the V in place of v, so I learned that because of the up thread comment and the puzzling D#.

db