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Thread: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

  1. #1

    Default The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    I was hoping my first post here would be something more upbeat...

    I purchased my first starter mandolin on eBay, a Loar LM-400- or so I thought. While it wasn't forthright advertised as such it was pretty obviously a factory blem. I was willing to take a shot as small cosmetic imperfections are not a problem for me in the least.

    Fast-forward to today when the mandolin arrives- initially, it was in better shape than I expected, with just a few finish defects. I was pretty happy until I took a close look.

    First thing that jumped out was the tuners- they are very similar to StewMac's Golden Age tuners, but their plate is too long for the headstock such that the corners overlap the base of the headstock at the bottom. To boot, the bushings installed are ludicrously oversize, with a hex style footprint, and the posts are already leaning and binding slightly. I hope Loar isn't supplying/installing junk replacement parts on their factory seconds, but I'm somewhat doubtful that the seller supplied these....

    Now to the real issue: It's not a LM400. Outwardly it appears correct, with the proper peghead inlay, etc. but it has an X-Braced top. I don't care if it's a blem but if the The Loar is labeling/selling, even as seconds, mandolins that are fundamentally different than their model designations that's a big problem. The bracing is the main inherent difference between the two models, and this one never should have made it out of the factory alive.

    I'm still waiting to hear back from the seller and hear his side of the story/impression of where this went wrong, but either way I'm a pretty unhappy camper at the moment.

    I doubt the seller really knew any better, and I'm guessing the fault probably lies with the manufacturer- however I don't have much recourse with them. I was pretty dead set on the quality:price tradeoff in buying a blemished model, but now I'm back to square one.

  2. #2
    Registered User Samuel David Britton's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    The x bracing suggest it being a lm-300. The Loar use Grovers on their A styles models
    not Golden Age. Don't know how it got mislabled. Also post some pictures.
    Last edited by Samuel David Britton; Jan-23-2014 at 5:56pm.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Well this thread is yet another object lesson on the pitfalls of dealing on Ebay. My guess is the seller is not an authorized.dealer so no recourse with the manufacturer. And you havent heard back from the seller yet. Shocker. I predict you will have to file a complaint with Ebay to get any satisfaction. And I would not assume the seller is innocent in all this either.

    The moral of the story is buy your instruments from a real store from a real authorized dealer of the brand you are interested in. Yes it will be more expensive. But worth every penny becausr you are assured they will stand behind it and you are actually getting what you pay for. Patronize real music stores and put an end to these gray market quick buck schemers. If they had no market eventually they would go away. I literally get sick to my stomach when I hear a story like this. Ebay is a snake pit. Caveat emptor.
    Don

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  5. #4

    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    I've no problem buying factory seconds- it's generally a great deal to get something for a severly reduced price because it has a slight finish imperfection. Great deal for the buyer, and sensible for the manufacturer. However, buying a mandolin with different bracing is like purchasing a car and finding a different engine in it.

    I've no reason yet to suspect any wrongdoing on the part of the seller, short of not being observant enough. It's pretty clear he's a reseller for Music Link seconds as he sells RK guitars as well as a ton of the loars. I do have reason to suspect that the tuners are manufacturer installed.... I looked through some e-bay sold listings and found that pretty much all of the LM400 seconds that have sold from a variety of sellers in different locals all have these tuners/bushings installed. It's pretty easy to spot once you know what you're look for- they have cream/tan buttons and hex bushings.

    I somewhat doubt multiple sellers have conspired to/coincidentally use the same poor tuner solution.

    I'll see if I can add some pictures...

  6. #5
    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    There are counterfeit everything out there for sale - purses, cameras, wrist watches, clothes, computers, TVs, jewelry and yes, even musical instruments. A walk through any flea market confirms that. Online "flea markets" are no different. Wherever the seller bought the stuff, odds are he was "looking for a good deal" too and someone obliged him as well.

    If the tuners are not OEM then that's a giveaway the instrument is a knockoff. Quality manufacturers don't replace OEM parts with other stuff and then sell off inferior stock with their logo in competition with their quality line. That's not only bad business, but quite awkward to have a second production line integrating a separate parts supply chain and a separate distribultion system. Quality manufacturers do have discolored "seconds" available for sale, but any second still has OEM parts and not lower -quality replacements. Knockoff houses figure that folk are more interested in the logo and a discount price than what's behind view.
    ...Steve

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    A knockoff of a "The Loar"?



    I kind of doubt that.
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  9. #7
    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    A knockoff of a "The Loar"?



    I kind of doubt that.
    Time will tell, but in my former professional life I saw unauthorized knockoffs of everything from tee shirts to tennis rackets to tiaras. It's a Caveat Emptor world and that's why dealing with anyone other than an authorized dealer brings a risk. Sure, the cost may be higher, but maybe in the end it isn't.
    ...Steve

    Current Stable: Two Tenor Guitars (Martin 515, Blueridge BR-40T), a Tenor Banjo (Deering GoodTime 17-Fret), a Mandolin (Burgess #7). two Banjo-Ukes and five Ukuleles..

    The inventory is always in some flux, but that's part of the fun.

  10. #8

    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    I'm not buying it being a knock-off. Besides, apart from the tuners, and the bracing, it seems 100% correct.

    I'm no sucker, and despite this being my first mandolin purchase I've about 40 instruments in the house from pre-war Martins to modern, and I have built numerous instruments.

    Since I just got this today, I can't place blame with certainty as to where it went wrong, with the tuners, bracing, or labeling.... but my gut doesn't think it was the seller.

    Here are a few sold listings from different sellers with the same tuners:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Loar-LM-...p2047675.l2557

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Loar-Lm400-V...p2047675.l2557

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Loar-LM-...p2047675.l2557


    I'd say someone other than the end-seller is installing these tuners. The sellers all claim they are getting the instruments from the manufactuer


    And here are some pictures of mine, with a shot through the endpin hole of the x-brace, and some to show tuner fit.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #9
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    My guess (and it is a guess) is that "seconds" are taken off the line before final assembly, if the defects are spotted in mid-production, and bulk-sold to a jobber who "finishes" the instruments to the extent that they have all components (even if they're not the tuners etc. that Loar would have put on), and sells 'em on eBay or through some other discount/auction market.

    One of my friends here in Rochester, Dave Stutzman of Stutzman's Guitar Center, had a partnership in a small guitar company, American Acoustech. Really nice guitars, by the way; I bought each of my kids one.

    His main supplier of bridges and fingerboards was C F Martin Co. in Nazareth PA. If a bridge or fingerboard didn't meet Martin's standards, they were pulled out of production and warehoused, then bulk-sold to other companies. Some guys I know used to drive down to Nazareth and go through the Martin warehouse, pulling out the best bridges and fingerboards, those with tiny defects; they'd fill up their mini-van and drive back to Rochester. Filling small scrapes and nicks, sanding out little humps or irregularities, etc., would be the next step; then the parts would go on Acoustech guitars. High quality material, minuscule defects, and a real "recycle" of eminently usable ebony and rosewood.

    If Loar's doing something similar with factory-second mandolins, too bad they aren't doing a better job of providing tuners etc. But as jkasmire points out, better to get some use out of them than to consign them to landfill.
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    Wood and Wire Perry Babasin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Possibly not a knock-off but a conglomeration of funky left-over parts. I bought my The Loar 600 from an ebay dealer without any hardware, not even the truss-rod cover (I knew what I was getting). Some of these ebay dealers aren't authorized and they have seconds, derelicts and bits & pieces from different brands and auctions, flea markets etc.. It sounds to me like the person put together some parts and made a "complete instrument" and forgot what the original box was, thinking it was a 400 (benefit of doubt). Does it have a label and serial number? How does it sound and was it an exceptional deal? It seems you were reasonably happy with your initial impression, It may be worth massaging into a fine "starter" and probably better than that, particularly if you got a good deal. A real set-up would help, you might just end up loving it!

    I like tone-bars myself. Pictures, or have you given up on it?
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Besides all that, how does it play?

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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Sorry to hear about the trouble. So it does have a label inside saying it's a LM400? Both the tuners and the fern inlay seem correct, and they are the same as what I had on the couple of LM400 I've had in the past. The tuners were probably installed incorrectly and without much precision, while someone at the factory may have put braces on a LM400 and result in this being a blem. Or, the mistake was putting a ferm inlay on a LM300? And do you have the option to return it to the seller?

  16. #13

    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    I haven't really given it a chance yet, it's not bad sounding, but that's not really the issue. I'm waiting to discuss the overall transaction with the seller at the moment. The setup isn't atrocious at all, could use a little work. But I'm not touching it until everything is sorted out.

    My biggest problem, is that I paid $xxx for a specific model of mandolin, which it clearly doesn't conform to, and if I desire to sell later, etc., I'm stuck with an instrument with some serious resale value issues given that I would have to describe it accurately in good conscience.

  17. #14
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    In my haste to post earlier I neglected to say to the OP " Welcome to the Cafe'!" So welcome!

    As you have already found out there is no shortage of opinions here. I read your original post again and noticed this time that all you did was lay out the scenario. You asked for no questions or opinions. But you sure got them anyway! I still think you should try to get the seller to take it back. Firstly it was blatantely misrepresented as the wrong model. That would be enough. But also if the bushings are too large how will you solve that? Once the holes are made larger you cant put wood back very easily. I agree with Allen. I bet at the factory the seconds were pulled before completion as in before hardware installation, sold as a lot to a jobber who completed the hardware installation with whatever he had on hand or whatever he could get for cheap then sold the results to your seller. As you say he may not know any better. He just wants to make a buck. If this is the scenario look at how many people are making a buck. The Loar because they didnt have to trash them. The jobber. Whoever made the cheap hardware used by the jobber. And finally the seller. Amazing when you stop to consider the entire chain of events.

    Just to be clear why exactly did you post this? You sound like you have a lot of experience with instruments. Were you actually looking for opinions on how to proceed? Or was this more of an informative post?
    Don

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  18. #15

    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    His main supplier of bridges and fingerboards was C F Martin Co. in Nazareth PA. If a bridge or fingerboard didn't meet Martin's standards, they were pulled out of production and warehoused, then bulk-sold to other companies. Some guys I know used to drive down to Nazareth and go through the Martin warehouse, pulling out the best bridges and fingerboards, those with tiny defects; they'd fill up their mini-van and drive back to Rochester. Filling small scrapes and nicks, sanding out little humps or irregularities, etc., would be the next step; then the parts would go on Acoustech guitars. High quality material, minuscule defects, and a real "recycle" of eminently usable ebony and rosewood.
    There's a big difference between selling assorted components and a whole, labeled instrument whose presence on the market damages your reputation. Martin destroys every instrument they make that does not meet their quality specifications.

  19. #16

    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Thanks Don!

    It was mostly posted as a combination of an informative post/warning/rant. Odds are I will end up returning it, but I wanted the info out there before it's potentially resold/ someone buys another of these. I was also curious if anyone else had one with the same tuners/bracing issues- odds are the issues would go unnoticed to most purchasers.

    Unless the seller feels inclined to offer a partial refund I'll likely seek a full return. I'd consider taking it for a reduced price and fixing its issues. It wouldn't be too hard fill and re-drill the peghead, etc., but I'm not doing the work and paying 'full' price.

  20. #17
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Unless the seller feels inclined to offer a partial refund I'll likely seek a full return. I'd consider taking it for a reduced price and fixing its issues. It wouldn't be too hard fill and re-drill the peghead, etc., but I'm not doing the work and paying 'full' price.
    It might be a worthy project at that if the price is right. Maybe he would rather do that than have negative feedback. Good luck and keep us posted.
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Interesting pics.

    The tuner plate overhanging like that is not entirely unknown on this brand.They are the right tuners, though. This happens not just on so-called "seconds", either. Tailpieces put on at angles and off-center are also common. I would not rule out the possibility it left the factory like that, with the main problem being they 'decorated' a body that was supposed to be an LM-300 with LM-400 bling. This has happened on 'The Loar' guitars... I've seen it myself. A guitar that was supposed to have solid back/sides was shipped with laminates. The QC is so wacky and all over the place, that I would think just about anything is possible.

    What I fail to understand is that if there are all these supposed "seconds" around, why on earth are they allowing them onto the market without some form of clear, indelible marking to differentiate them from "firsts"? How is anyone to know, especially if buying used down the line? Another weird thing... some of these supposed "seconds" come with a factory fitted "QC passed" sticker...very strange stuff.
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  22. #19
    Registered User Petrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Yes, you do have to be careful on eBay, but I enjoy "window shopping" on eBay to see what's out there and have gotten some fair deals, and also sold plenty of stuff there (books, mainly, so far.) It's always caveat emptor but I've had crappy experiences in the 3-D (offline) world too. Just the other day I got offered $12.50 cash for my electric violin which I'm trying to unload (for which I paid nearly $100 and is in nearly new condition.) And we've all heard Craigslist horror stories.

    As for eBay, I think the buyer protections in place are pretty solid. Most items contain plenty of close-up photos of any problem spots (if they don't, that's a red flag right there and I wouldn't bid on anything that didn't have plenty of close up photos. Ebay lets you include up to 12 photos for free, so there's no excuse.) Also every seller is rated. Don't spend big bucks with a newbie seller, or with anyone with less than a 98% satisfaction rating. And their new policy in league with their subsidiary PayPal more or less keeps the money in escrow for up to thirty days or so. I know, this is a pain in the butt for me when I sell something, the buyer receives it (I make a point of getting stuff shipped the next day if possible) and I end up waiting up to a month to get my damn money from PayPal. But it does work in the buyer's favor, and if the buyer is more confident, I'm more likely to sell my item.

    Just how much was that quasi-Loar you bought in relation to the expected list price for a perfect model? If it was 50% less, maybe you still got a good deal.

    EDIT: Okay, I clicked on one of the eBay links posted above. The winning bid for this Loar LM-400-VS was $271. A quick moment of Google showed that this model generally sells for around $600 new. The original listing included, in bold print both at the top and the bottom, "NEEDS REPAIR - This mandolin has a cracked nut and is missing the bridge. We received this mandolin from the factory warehouse in this condition as a second. It is not playable in present condition. It will need a new nut, bridge and a neck set up to be deemed playable. Selling AS-IS."

    Given that you got it for less than half the new price, and the very clear caveats in the ad, I don't think you'll get very far with a complaint to the seller. IMO, the seller fulfilled his due diligence to a satisfactory degree. Had you paid $400-500 for the thing, that'd be a different story. I'd say the slightly misfitting tuners are the least of the problems with the thing, and are not even the reason why it is listed as "not playable." The seller could just as well have taken the tuners off altogether and sold it without the tuners (as it was sold without the bridge), and it would have been equally unplayable, and you would have had to go out and install new tuners in addition to a new bridge. And it still would've been worth $271.

    Just IMO, so nobody have a conniption fit please.
    Last edited by Petrus; Jan-24-2014 at 4:50am.

  23. #20

    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    EDIT: Okay, I clicked on one of the eBay links posted above. The winning bid for this Loar LM-400-VS was $271. A quick moment of Google showed that this model generally sells for around $600 new. The original listing included, in bold print both at the top and the bottom, "NEEDS REPAIR - This mandolin has a cracked nut and is missing the bridge. We received this mandolin from the factory warehouse in this condition as a second. It is not playable in present condition. It will need a new nut, bridge and a neck set up to be deemed playable. Selling AS-IS."
    Sorry if it wasn't clear, but those were just examples of other sellers that had sold mandolins with the same ill-fitting tuners, those were not listings I purchased from as I didn't intend to drag the seller into here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    Had you paid $400-500 for the thing, that'd be a different story.
    I was closer to that figure, yes. I'd say I paid a fair used price, which would seem about right to me for a new mandolin with some minor finish flaws, which is what I was expecting/what was described by the seller.

  24. #21
    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    This topic has really intrigued me, so I also examined many EBay ads for The Loar mandolins. Many were from music stores selling new at Manufacturer's suggested retail. A couple were for used instruments from private parties. There were also ads from stores selling "B Stock - Open Box" with no factory warranty. One seller caveats their instruments with the following statement (note the head stamp and unique serial number notice):

    "This instrument was sent by the Manufacturer to an authorized refurbishing center located in Nashville, TN. Instruments are regularly transferred to this center for a variety of reasons including: cosmetic flaws, small repairs, store returns, or overruns. Once the instrument has received any necessary services it is sold to musical instrument retailers like __________. These instruments are sold as used and no warranty is offered by the Manufacturer. In order to prevent fraudulent warranty claims, the back of the head stock is stamped “used” and the original serial number has been replaced with a new one by the authorized refurbisher. Most guitars have no visible flaws. If a flaw exists we do our best to describe and document the flaw in our pictures and description."

    The OP's comment about non-OEM tuners made me think back about posts elsewhere which discussed where name-brand mandolin strings had been replaced in the name-brand envelope packaging for cheap stuff and then sold online. It just goes to show that while there are indeed bargains in cyberspace, there's also "bait and switch" whether done by the seller or the seller's supplier. In the caveat above that seller also listed all of the instrument's specifications (including Grover tuners), but just as many sellers did not provide the specifications for their item.

    Also in the above caveat is the reference to "the Manufacturer" rather than just "The Loar," insinuating that the refurbisher handles more than one brand.
    ...Steve

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    The inventory is always in some flux, but that's part of the fun.

  25. #22
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    What struck me about your initial post is "What are you complaining about?", Didn't you get to examine photos of the instrument and its blemishes, its hardware, etc. prior to purchase? A newish mando for sale at a remarkable discount has got to raise some suspicions... If you expected perfect then buy new with a warrentee from the dealer. But when you buy as you did at a significant discount then you have to expect some problems, cosmetic and/or structural.

    So switch the tuners with a brand which fits better and deal with the other problems, or not. but in my opinion you got what you paid for.

    You complain about X bracing but if you are new to mandolins you haven't the slightest idea whether X bracing is preferable to tone bar bracing for your kind of playing... and neither do most of the rest of us.

    I also think it is interesting that you made no comments on its playability or sound. If you bought it for its looks then you should have paid for a non-blemished instrument. If you bought it for its playability and tone then why haven't you commented on that aspect? I realize that, as a beginner, you are still a little confused about the purchase.... but you bought it at a significant discount... I don't think you have much to complain about.

    Keep in mind that sound has very little to do with looks. If it sounds good after about six months of playing and practicing then you did good.
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    Another comment:

    I sometimes buy as you did, an instrument with known and unknown flaws or problems... Since I paid less, I expect less, and I expect to work on the instrument to rectify any problems, if I can. From what you describe there is nothing wrong with the instrument that can't be readily fixed... So fix it. And next time buy a non-blemished instrument with a warantee from a reputable dealer.
    Bart McNeil

  27. #24
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    The tuner spec on the LM-400 has changed over time. First Grovers then Golden Age.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...00-Tuner-Knobs

    If the tuners are an off-white, creamy color, that could gain indicate an LM-300 spec. I have some photos. I'll try to post shortly.
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  28. #25
    mandolin slinger Steve Ostrander's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Loar eBay purchase basketcase disaster

    I also doubt it's a knock-off. I know that forgers knock Gibsons off all the time, but I don't think the profit margin is great enough to knock off The Loar.
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