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Thread: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

  1. #1
    Registered User Rick Crenshaw's Avatar
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    Default WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Probably not exactly a direct question about vintage instruments, but I'm finding myself ready to purchase a good oval hole A for a different sound than what I've got. I have two great F5's, not vintage, but built to get that vintage tone (yes, I know you can't buy seasoning and age, but you can get a mandolin that goes close in that direction). This was done primarily because I could not afford a Loar or even a 30's Fern... not even close. (Well, I guess I COULD, but I love being married to my wife.)

    Now, vintage oval A's are more affordable and within my ability to purchase without my wife reaching for the frying pan. My question is should I buy a good condition vintage A (snake head, 20's A, or teens A) or should I buy a really top notch replica?

    There are several factors which might help you guys give me good advice here:
    a) I'm not a collector. I'm after tone, tone, tone.
    b) I'm not a fan of fat necks. I prefer more modern slimmish V necks, though I suspect I could learn to adjust for a good sounding mandolin.
    c) Don't want a high maintenance instrument. If I can't take it out and play it, I don't really want it, though I suspect I could do that with any good condition vintage mandolin.
    d) I'd love a Loar Era Snakehead (any great sounding model) but would be fine with a paddlehead if the tone is better.
    e) I don't have access to good instrument shops, though I do live 3 hours from NashVegas.
    f) I don't want an overly tubby mandolin. Prefer a rounder tone than my F5's which are very Loarish, midrangey, bright highs.

    Any of you care to make comments? Especially comparing the best sounding vintage models to modern maker replica's. Oh, also, any dealer recommendations who will work with me well long distance.

    TIA, Rick
    Rick in Memphis

  2. #2
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Older As are not slim necked , so you may be happier with a build , that you can specify .
    as well as a hybridization of a F like long neck and the oval sound hole body.

    I own a brown '22 A0 and another redburst '22 A4
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  3. #3
    Registered User Rick Crenshaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    Older As are not slim necked , so you may be happier with a build , that you can specify .
    as well as a hybridization of a F like long neck and the oval sound hole body.

    I own a brown '22 A0 and another redburst '22 A4
    So, are those just prior to snakeheads or is one or are both snakeheads? Is there a preference in your mind for the early twenty's mando's over the mid to late teens tonewise?

    How many A's did you check out prior to buying those two? Is there a pretty wide tonal difference in examples? In otherwords, is this purchase going to be a long term hunt for 'the one'?
    Rick in Memphis

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    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    It is often said that we are in a Golden Age of Lutherie. My vote is a new build. I am unabashedly in the Rigel camp and have seen and heard some wonderful instruments recently coming out of Pete's shop. (A Vega cylinder back copy which was a joy to see and hear ..... and i am anxious to hear what happens when Pete does his promised copy of the D'Angelico asymetrical A's.)

    Ryk
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  5. #5
    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    You can buy a decent teens paddle head A model for less that $1000 these days. Are there good modern instruments with the vintage tone available in the market place for that kind of money?
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Both old and new have their strengths. Old instruments have character and often a really beautiful tone. They may be a bit more finicky, but not necessarily. I have old oval holes that I love but I also have new ones that are great.

    For versatility and value, it's hard to beat a good Bussman Old Wave oval hole. The only possible negative is whether the neck suits your hand -- an important issue on any instrument. But that's the only thing I've ever heard in the way of criticism of a Bussman oval hole. Their necks aren't less popular than anybody else's, mind you; it's just the only thing I've ever heard someone dislike about a Bussman. Some people don't like oval holes of any sort, of course.

    I have a couple of old Gibsons, a couple of old Vegas, a couple of old Howe-Ormes, an old Lyon & Healy and they're all wonderful instruments. But for versatility and affordability, I'd put my Old Wave at or near the top of the bunch. Plus, Bill's a great guy and much better about replying to emails than Orville Gibson or Patrick Healy.
    Bob DeVellis

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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    I wholeheartedly agree with Bob about Old Wave oval-hole A models. Bill built one for me earlier this year, and it's a very fine mandolin. If the neck profile is an issue with you, maybe Bill can make the neck the way you want it.
    Jim Blanchard

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    Registered User rnjl's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    I had the same question some years ago and decided to get a new build because I wanted to specify neck shape (round no "v") and length (14 frets clear) and it worked out well. My mandolin was built by Will Parsons and was reasonably priced, looks great and has a wonderful oval-hole tone, if you know what I mean.

  9. #9
    Quietly Making Noise Dave Greenspoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    I guess the first part of the question is, What is your budget? The second is, What is the sound you're looking for?

    Budget: If a top of the line A-4 snakehead in decent but not great shape and all original parts runs about $5000 or more and ditto if not more so the A2Z, how much of a value is it to buy the functionality of a new build at your budget point?

    Sound: Is a Gibson A style the sound your music is looking for, or is a mid-20's vintage Martin with Brazilian rosewood and a spruce top going to do it for you at a more accessible $2k? What about some old bent-top with great tone and mojo for even less money, with upgraded tuners if necessary since you are not in it for a pristine collector's piece? Ditto the idea of a Vega cylinder back?

    I have to say those mid-20's Martins and old Vega cylinder backs certainly have their appeal! Then again, I'm a cultural infidel and would not be averse to changing out tuners and the like on a vintage Gibson if that's what it took to have a playable instrument. At the end of the day, if my budget allowed I'd probably be calling someone like Gail Hester to discuss the A-4 of my dreams, with the idea that maybe my one of my [eventual] grandkids might fall in love w/an "early 21st century instrument with some really great old tone."

  10. #10
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    If it's tone you're looking for, some of those vintage Gibsons can be spectacularly good value. I got my 1921/22 (the serial number is right on the boundary of these years) paddlehead Ajr for GBP500 (around $750) around two years ago, which was a great catch as Gibsons are normally much more expensive in the UK than in the US. The neck is slimmer than a teens A with a slight V shape, although not as slim as most modern F5s, and it feels great. I think these early Ajrs already had the non-adjustable truss rod of the later ones, but I may be wrong. Intonation is spot on, tone is more snakehead than teens tubbyness, strong throughout and somewhat aggressive on the trebles. The tuners are working well, although one maybe has to retune slightly more frequently than with modern tuners. The reason for the low price is that it's fairly beat up and that the neck joint/heel looks a bit iffy (but has remained stable all the time I have had it and while the previous two owners have had it). There are some photos in this old thread.

    So, good vintage ovals can still be had at prices where they compete with Eastman and Kentucky, not Old Wave. It's more than a little potluck, though, and at the affordable end there are likely to be some structural doubts that need to be assessed for their seriousness. No such worries (usually) with modern instruments.

    As far as Old Waves ovals are concerned, I've only ever played one and that was an unusual custom model with mahogany back which was offered to me for GBP1000 (around $1500), itself rather a bargain price for those. It looked spectacular, played like butter and had a cool vintage sound on the bottom three strings. However, on that particular mando the E string was a bit weak and I passed on the offer. As I've never heard of that issue with other Old Waves, it was probably not typical and may even have been a setup issue. The general consensus is that the Old Waves are as close to the vintage mojo as you can get in a modern build.

    Martin

  11. #11
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Hey Rick. For what it's worth, I've got an '18 A and a '24 Jr and here's my take. The '18 I picked out of a largish lot of vintage A's and it was outstanding. The tone really beat up the competition of higher end, more collectible models. Nothing touched it in the room to my ears anyway. The neck was livable and I really grew into it. This was my stage axe exclusively for ages. I picked up the snakehead Jr off the classifieds for the sole reason that it was a great price and I thought it would be a reasonable back up. Man, it killed me the first time I played it! I've never given tons of my time to the whole "it has to be a snakehead to be any good" mentality (deliberate exaggeration here....) but if this is an example of what they are all like, sign me up. If you A-B the two of them, the tone is shockingly similar but the '24 plays better than it's older relative in my hands. Bare in mind that I've always found my '18 extraordinary, even by old gibby standards. On top of the playability, the Jr has that extra little "something" that I can't describe but it's painfully obvious when you pick it up. Serious mojo. You'll pay more for a high-end luthier built copy I'd imagine and while you'd get a beautiful instrument, it just wouldn't have that character and experience. That being said, I've commissioned a copy of my Jr for the
    stage. I know you can't build in 85-90 years of playing and tone into an instrument but you can try. I'm just becoming increasingly nervous hammering on these night after night and transporting them all over the place doing fly away shows, so I'm going to see if I can live with new build. Strictly because I don't want to destroy these mandos and I will be able to better preserve them for my own pleasure and studio work. My opinion on all of this of course. Good luck in your quest-there are some real outstanding examples out there so be picky and find something you love!
    Last edited by gw16; Oct-05-2009 at 2:09am.

  12. #12
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Can't beat an Old Wave oval. Have two of Bills babies myself and enjoy the heck out of em.
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    It sounds like you (really) want a snakehead Gibson. The snakehead A-ovals went to a considerably more narrow neck/fingerboard, about 1-1/16" I believe, than the paddleheads (1-3/16") both before and after. So that may fit your preference better, but they seem to run ~50% or more expensive than paddleheads. I have two Gibson paddleheads; they are my preference because of the wider fingerboard. But my ideal period would be mid-late '20s with the adjustable truss rod.

    The Old Wave A-ovals are fantastic, but they have wider fingerboards a la the old Gibsons. One suggestion I would make is to look at this as a difference/characteristic of this style of mandolin, not something to necessarily avoid. From experience, it can be hard to find a used Old Wave for sale.

    What about that distressed Pomeroy A-oval that has listed several times now in the classifieds? If I felt that I could pull the trigger on a $1K mandolin purchase right now, it would be this one.
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    Mike Parks woodwizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    As some have already mentioned ... it depends on what tone you're looking for and your budget .
    I was in a simular situation having the F model that was perfect for me but was always longing for the oval hole tone of a vintage Gibson. Tried several vintage and newer oval holes ... like the long neck hybrids. I landed with an old vintage Gibson A4 1919 paddle head ... all original and in great shape. The short & fatter neck took a little getting use to but boy that sweet tone of it was what I was really looking for. I'm very happy that I got it. It really has that old timey sort of what I call "Norman Blake tone" and that's what I wanted. I suggest you just try a few out and see if that's what you're looking for. You can get a pretty decent vintage Gibson oval hole that won't set you back to far pricewise.
    Last edited by woodwizard; Oct-05-2009 at 12:25pm.
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    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    A Gilchrist Model One would appear to suit several of your requirements.

  16. #16
    Registered User Rick Crenshaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    A Gilchrist Model One would appear to suit several of your requirements.
    Yowza!!! I bet it would. Think I'll try an Old Wave or vintage Gibby first.

    Thanks to all so far. Great observations. Anyone dealt with Charles Johnson at Mandolin World... PM is fine. Other than that, Gruhn's trip advised I supposed.
    Rick in Memphis

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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Charles is a good guy with a solid reputation. He also knows a lot about mandolins. I've only heard good reports from people who've done business with him.
    Bob DeVellis

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    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    I have purchased one mandolin from Charles, quite a while ago. The transaction was satisfactory in every way. He has always had an awesome inventory. Those F4s are killin' me.
    Mike Snyder

  19. #19

    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    There's an Old Wave oval here that I played a few weeks ago and I think is still for sale. NFI. It sounded great, was easy to play, had a nut that seemed in between the snakeheads and my MT20, so maybe 1 1/8". I have 2 Old Waves, and am very happy with them.

  20. #20
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Crenshaw View Post
    Thanks to all so far. Great observations. Anyone dealt with Charles Johnson at Mandolin World... PM is fine. Other than that, Gruhn's trip advised I supposed.
    Charles has a great reputation and I've only ever heard good things about him. My Ajr was at one stage sold by Charles, and although I bought it a couple of owners later, one of the things that reassured me about the stability of the neck joint is that Charles had given it a thorough check and had pronounced it sound. Turns out he was right.

    Martin

  21. #21
    Registered User Stephen Lind's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    I'm suprised that no one here has brought up what I decided to do being in the same situation as the OP.

    After much ground work and deliberation, I have ordered a mandolin to be built by the amazing Mrs Gail Hester!

    I own a couple of very nice paddle head Gibsons ('17 & '20) and even though i come from guitar and am comfortable on a large range of neck sizes including Nationals, basses, my Leo Kottke...I perfer a "modern" (as in Loar) neck carve on a mandolin
    My Givens A3 is perfect at 1 1/16

    The first Hester that I played just floored me on all accounts-
    looks
    sound
    playablity
    and a VERY vintage vibe
    then i visited Gail and Chuck and that did it
    had a GREAT time and was able to play a few of her pieces next to a vintage F4
    The mandolin Gail is making for me is for my 60th birthday and is a very important milestone in my life and I know that it will be spectacular in every way

    there will likely be a thread on the build as it will be a very unique A with (of course) a historical precedent

    so WWYD?
    that's what I'm Doing
    Last edited by Stephen Lind; Oct-06-2009 at 1:05am.

  22. #22
    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    This is certainly a conundrum. I went through this same vintage v. modern interpretation in my guitar life. Of course, there is no answer. I feel myself getting sucked into the same thing all over again only this time it is mandolins. Its pretty clear from the posts here that I'm not the first one to struggle with this, eh Rick? I am in the exact same place. Ultimately, if I had the resources, which I don't, (and therein lies the problem), I would have both.

    Unfortunately, I have to be practical about this. I want to play a nice reliable oval hole with good tone. It does not have to be the ultimate - very very good will be satisfactory. In guitars I tried vintage, then had a couple of custom builds and then ended up changing my whole attitude completely and I found an excellent used Bourgeois for half the cost of a custom build that I am now head over heels in love with. I'd like to avoid all the wasted money and time and stress this time around. I feel a case of MAS coming on.

    Aside from the custom builds - which are on my radar screen for sure - what are the better A shape oval hole mandolins out there in the under $3000 price range from the high end medium builders - I know Collings - any others of that ilk?
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    The Colling's ovals have a hybrid neck and would likely not sound like an old Gibson. Frankly, you can get a players vintage Gibson in playable condition for much less than a new build. I kinda like supporting the new independent builder but I've played some very comfortable, great sounding vintage Gibson's too. I'm happy this question isn't my current problem. No easy or right solution.

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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    I go with the old ones most of the time; but then, I'm not going to be around long enough to put 30 years of breaking-in into a new instrument. Your mileage may vary.

    FWIW, I've had few problems, none very costly to remedy, with my 1920s Gibsons. And I "imprinted" on the typical Gibson neck size long ago, so that's no problem for me.

  25. #25
    Registered User Chunky But Funky's Avatar
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    Default Re: WWYD: Vintage oval or good new replica?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gerety View Post
    Aside from the custom builds - which are on my radar screen for sure - what are the better A shape oval hole mandolins out there in the under $3000 price range from the high end medium builders - I know Collings - any others of that ilk?
    I would lump Pomeroy's in that ilk, made by Don and Josh Paine. There was a recent naturally distressed A in the classifieds. Also Steve Miklas @ Acoustic Music Works has a used F4 style oval hole Pomeroy. NFI on either, BTW. Steve would be able to give you an in-hand description compared to the Collings ovals, because he carries both.

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