Pick picking place

[John Bertotti]

I really want to know how odd this is but I really love the sound of my vega when I pick as close to possible to the end of the fret board. I would actually play over the end of the fret board if I had better picking depth control. To much tap tap on the fret board there. Is there a right or wrong? Where do you all prefer to play? Thanks John

[Jim Garber]

No right or wrong just the tone you want. I recall Gertrude Troester talking about the various places to get different tones. She had names for them but i can't recall what those names were.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Gertrude Troester's name appears here often. I see she has some videos are they pretty good for a new guy into this genre?
Thanks Jim that vega is doing great I can't imagine why you sold it to me. I cleaned it up one night when I took the bridge off and my wife says it looks a lot newer now. I put the Lenzner strings on and found in order to intonate it I had to cant the bridge with the treble closer to the tail. Odd but sounds good. John

[Martin Jonas]

Pick depth control is the reason why I'm not keen on fretboard extentions. I can't imagine reaching the stage where I need to go above the 17th fret and they get in the way of picking. So, it's a good thing that none of my three mandos have an extension. For the bowlback, I usually pick directly above the centre of the hole, although I sometimes go closer to the bridge if I want a more metallic tone. Because the bridge is so low on mine, I do occasionally hit the scratchplate when picking behind the soundhole (it's only about three millimetres from string to top there).

Martin

[John Bertotti]

Right or wrong I have made doing scales over the fret board an exercise. If I move real slow I can do it. Thanks John

[Eugene]

Gertrud's videos are very nice, but be warned, they are firmly rooted in the modern German style. #This is a decided effort to break from Italiate tradition. #I find her guitar-like stance just plain uncomfortable with traditional, wee, Italian-/American-sized mandolins (I elevate the right leg for mandolin).

You should pluck from different areas for different tone. #The south edge of the soundhole is usually considered "natural." #The round tone up over the fingerboard is called sul tasto, and the loud, bright, thin tone near the bridge is called metalico or ponticello.

[Jim Garber]

Gertrud's videos are very nice, but be warned, they are firmly rooted in the modern German style. #This is a decided effort to break from Italiate tradition. #I find her guitar-like stance just plain uncomfortable with traditional, wee, Italian-/American-sized mandolins (I elevate the right leg for mandolin).

You should pluck from different areas for different tone. #The south edge of the soundhole is usually considered "natural." #The round tone up over the fingerboard is called sul tasto, and the loud, bright, bright thin tone near the bridge is called metalico or ponticello.

Ah, thanks Eugene for the terms which seem to slip my mind often.

Jim

[Rex]

I let the tune dictate where I pick, and it could be anywhere. Some tunes just feel or sound better with a certain tone. I hate fretboard extensions, they are in a place I never fret but like to sometimes pick. 18 frets are plenty for me, but I realize some folks do have a use for more.

[Eugene]

Indeed, there are some mandolin pices to go to a''''. That takes 29!

[Bob A]

I'd thought the more elevated frets would never be used by the likes of me, but it can be fun to end up up there when the mood strikes. Tend to sound like striking a (tuned) metal plate, though. Not much room for tone color at the upper extremes, seemingly.

[etbarbaric]

As Eugene (and Gertrude) note, varying your right hand position along the length of the string can produce different colors, appropriate to specific effects you are trying to achieve in the music you are playing. You might, for instance, play a repeated phrase first with the plectrum over the scratch-plate, then repeat it near the top of the sound hole for a different color in addition to a different dynamic.

Another thing to note is that as your left hand moves up the fretboard into higher positions, the string is made functionally shorter (this is especially notable on the mandolin). It often makes sense to move the right hand as well to keep the impact of the pick at the same relative location on the string. In other words, in a higher position I might play with the plectrum well over the sound-hole... not to achieve a sul tasto sound... but to keep the sound color consistent with that of lower positions.

All of this points to having a right-hand technique that does not "plant" the arm in an imovable position on either the bridge, or the body of the instrument.

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Another thing to note is that as your left hand moves up the fretboard into higher positions, the string is made functionally shorter (this is especially notable on the mandolin). It often makes sense to move the right hand as well to keep the impact of the pick at the same relative location on the string. In other words, in a higher position I might play with the plectrum well over the sound-hole... not to achieve a sul tasto sound... but to keep the sound color consistent with that of lower positions.

All of this points to having a right-hand technique that does not "plant" the arm in an imovable position on either the bridge, or the body of the instrument.

Great explanation, Eric!

Alex

[Bob A]

It might not only be the place, but the pressure. I've noticed that when playing a 4-course chord that is intended to ring for a while, it serves me well to emphasise the two higher notes by playing them a little louder than the bassier strings. This permits them to more nearly match the sustain afforded the bass by the more massive strings.

[etbarbaric]

I might add that even Leone's 18th-century tutor for the Neapolitan mandolin gives terms for tone color in association with the location of the pick stroke. These terms and positions are shown on his fine engraving of the Neapolitan mandolin (sorry, I don't have it handy just now, or I'd list his names).

From a physics/musical accoustics standpoint, the different position of the pick-stroke along the length of the string generates different harmonics. Pluck near the center of the string's length (near the fretboard) and you get more of the fundamental tone for the note you have fretted. This tone will likely sound "round", or perhaps "soft", and "pleasing". Pluck nearer to one end or the other and you get more harmonics, and perhaps a more "metalic", "loud", or "strident" tone.

Interestingly, those who study fine old violins have found that much of the "projection" quality that these instruments produce comes from their ability produce harmonics in specific ranges that travel well... all the way back to the cheap seats. These fiddles are more than just "loud"... they're accoustic machines that are well matched to the human ear.

So... another approach to bringing out the top of a chord, is to stroke in a slightly diagonal manner, so the pluck on the e-strings is at a different point along the length of the string than that on the G-strings. This is fun to play with to get different effects.

Best,

Eric

[etbarbaric]

In his 18th-century "Methode Raisonnee pour passer du Violon a la mandoline' et de l'archet a la plume", Pietro Leone provides a nice woodcut of a Neapolitan mandolin and lists the following indications for the position where the plectrum strikes the string:

- Son flute' C (corresponding to sul tasto)
- Son naturel A (corresponding to natural)
- Son argentin B (corresponding to sul ponticello)

The alphabetic letters seem to be a sort of key, and they are placed with the "B" next to the bridge, the "A" just south of the sound-hole, and the "C" over the sound hole (about 2/3 of the way up).

I found the use of "argentin" interesting. Anyone with a background in French care to comment? Richard?

Eric

[Martin Jonas]

I found the use of "argentin" interesting. #Anyone with a background in French care to comment? #Richard?

Well, argent is both silver and money, so presumably that's the same as metalico.

Martin

[Eugene]

I was all set to post a scan of the image from Leone's method. I popped in a disc...and found it to be the wrong disc. Ah well.

I like his description of the rounder tone as "fluté." I think "son argentin" could be loosely translated as "its silvery tone" or, why not, "metalico."

[etbarbaric]

Yes... I like "silvery" and "flutey" too... good imagery. The next time I describe it to someone I will handily quip "son argentin" just for effect :-). I believe "metalico" is an invention of the modern German school as I've not seen it referenced anywhere else.

Eric

[Eugene]

I believe "metalico" is an invention of the modern German school as I've not seen it referenced anywhere else.

I think you're right. While I like the evocative nature of the term, I also like the more universal sul ponticello for its broader-than-mandolin applicability.