Pick Strokes?

[acousticnotes]

I was wondering if the up and down pick strokes is used primarily in Bluegrass music than Classical music or Jazz? I'm not talking tremolo just single line melody's.

[Ken]

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I will chime in here too. But it depends on the player's particular style whether it's primarily down up down or not. One of the things I like about Bill Monroe's playing is his use of downstrokes which really create a unique power and rhythm I haven't seen with folks just using the alternating down up down.
Ken

[Mike Bunting]

It's used everywhere.

[Miked]

It's across the board. The fundamental concept of playing in the direction of the up beat or down beat has helped me in all genres. I also play electric bass (with a pick) and keeping ups and downs in their proper place is a key with staying tight with the drummer. There's a time and place for the aggressive downstrokes, but in general, you want to keep them in the right direction for all styles.

[Rob Gerety]

There's a time and place for the aggressive downstrokes, but in general, you want to keep them in the right direction for all styles.

What Miked said.

[fishtownmike]

I pretty much use it exclusively on all the instruments I play. There are times for down, down or up, up in succession but i prefer alternate most of the time...Mike

[JeffD]

I was wondering if the up and down pick strokes is used primarily in Bluegrass music than Classical music or Jazz?

Its fundamental to how the instrument is played. Like bowing on the fiddle. Up and Down

[EdSherry]

As opposed to what? In and out? Back and forth? Sideways?

Seriously, the idea of picking with a downstroke on the downbeat (1, 2, 3, 4) and an upstroke on the upbeat (1 AND, 2 AND, 3 AND, 4 AND) is used in many genres of music. As always, there are exceptions. But you're well off learning the basic "rule" and applying it 90+% of the time.

[acousticnotes]

As opposed to what? In and out? Back and forth? Sideways?

Seriously, the idea of picking with a downstroke on the downbeat (1, 2, 3, 4) and an upstroke on the upbeat (1 AND, 2 AND, 3 AND, 4 AND) is used in many genres of music. As always, there are exceptions. But you're well off learning the basic "rule" and applying it 90+% of the time.

What got me thinking of up and down strokes not used in the traditional way was I watching Evan Marshall style of playing. For the melody line it was mostly all tremolo for the accompaniment notes seem to me are not all up and down. I guess he is the exception but this style does open up a whole new world.

[EdSherry]

Yeah, well ... Evan's "duo style" mandolin is in a whole 'nother world!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imDg23yex7w

[dgrolem]

I guess I don't quite understand. If you are controlling the tone of the down and up strokes so that they are even as possible (as several instructional materials have suggested), what does it matter whether you DN UP or UP DN ?

[Jim Broyles]

Well, it isn't simply a matter of controlling the tone. There are subtle differences between the sound of an up stroke and the sound of a down stroke, not to mention that from a pure ease of playing standpoint, it is much easier to start a phrase with a down stroke and in fact a down beat is almost always played with a down stroke. Furthermore, depending on the rhythm and tempo of a song or tune, one might put two or more ups or downs together in a phrase. ITM uses DUD DUD DUD DUD for a lot of tunes, such as jigs. It does matter and you will probably come to realize it as you play more.

[Rob Gerety]

I made the mistake of not paying close attention to pick direction and strict alternate picking and then had to pay for it later as my speed increased. Best to get off to a good start. DUD DUD DUD is a variation used by many (most?) when playing jigs (6/8) time. Just yesterday I was struggling with a particular spot in a new tune I am learning and when I slowed down on that particular spot I realized that my pick direction was off and it was messing up my rhythm and causing the problem.

[MadMarine]

What got me thinking of up and down strokes not used in the traditional way was I watching Evan Marshall style of playing. For the melody line it was mostly all tremolo for the accompaniment notes seem to me are not all up and down. I guess he is the exception but this style does open up a whole new world.

Joe:

First off, I'm just a nugget so anything I say might be a misinterpretation of what Evan has taught me.

Evan is a fanatic about rest strokes wherever possible. He recently admonished me for not using a rest stroke on a 1/32nd series of notes. While it is not a "true" rest stroke, the goal, even with fast passages is to use the lower string as a trampoline for the upstroke on the next note. As it turns out it is very efficient. A straight down motion of the wrist followed by a slightly straight up motion just missing the next lower string. I hope that makes sense.

There are lots of exceptions to using a strict DUDU pattern. This depends on what the composer had in mind when writing the piece. In some cases, DDUD is expected. This puts emphasis on a particular note. There is an assumption here that there is an inherent "weakness" in the upstroke and that "weakness" can be exploited by the composer. Yeh, I know that the goal is both stokes should be identical.

As to duo style, many of the lower register notes would be a series of downstrokes. Just like a classical guitarist uses downstrokes with his thumb. Many of the sequences in Evan's duo work is: D - lower register note, UDU... etc. on the melody line.

Mad

[acousticnotes]

Thanks Mad. Yes that makes perfect sense. I play fingerstyle guitar and use a thumb pick and Acrylic nails on three fingers much in the same way. I was thinking of doing the same with the mandolin and might just end up playing that way. But seeing and hearing Evan play was eye opening to say the least. So for now I'm learning to play with a pick in the standard way to see which way would be better for me. But it's all good.

[MadMarine]

Joe:

Evan has a duo style book that would help. It can be ordered on his website. Typical disclaimer, no financial interest on my part... etc.

Mad

[rockies]

I use down up alternate for almost everything, it sets up the timing and allows me to stay on the downbeats. A good example to watch is John Reischman, John uses strict down up in bluegrass, jazz, latin etc etc and even Bill Monroe stuff. Remember Bill made downstrokes but the pick had to come back up in the air to make the next one, so he was still doing the down up.
Dave

[Pete Hicks]

I agree with Evan about rest strokes. Pick direction is mostly down up, but there are occasions when it is better to start a phrase on an upstroke. Sometimes there is a pickup note before the measure which is better done with an upstroke to allow the down stroke on the beat. In bluegrass I use downstrokes as much as I can. There is another technique called "gliding" the pick. When you play a note on the D string, for example, followed by a note on the A string, you get a very smooth,legato tone by just continuing the down stroke to cover the string change. You can also use a gliding upstroke to move to a lower string. (from Bickford Mandolin method)

[mandotopia]

I want to chime in in agreement w/ many of the posts here. It is useful to keep the downstroke on the beat. You can then develop habits on scale and arpeggio passages that avoid crosspicking (use pinkey instead of crosspick)making it easier to increase speed. Developing a habitual use of rest strokes makes it easier to attack a phrase and get a fat tone. In duo style playing keeping the downstroke on the beat is often necessary to play through the lower strongs on your way to the higher string. Most duo style pieces have the melody on the higher string and the accompaniment on the lower strings. This makes it much easier to create the illusion of two instruments playing. Some duo pieces work better if you to reverse orientation (from down stroke on the beat to up stroke on the beat) in order to avoid a crosspick. (Some duo phrases are virtually impossible to do do with a crosspick). Does anybody know of any other thorough duo style method books? Pettinne wrote one but I do not have it and don't know where to find one (out of print?). Bickford covers it some. Just wondering.

[Patrick Gunning]

Unless you're playing duo-style, 6/8 jigs or 9/8 slip jigs in Celtic music, or doing repeated downstrokes to imitate a specific aggressive Monroe or rock lick, ANY single-note line is Down Up Down Up. This means that almost all the playing you'll do is Down Up Down Up. Unless you have very specific knowledge that something wasn't originally DUDU, you should play it DUDU.

The best explanation of this I've seen is in the Chris Thile instructional DVD, though I'm sure that Mike Marshall's Fundamentals series contains this same lesson in detail. I know I've seem him bring the hammer down about consistent DUDU play at the symposium enough. He got on my case for not playing something in 25/16 time DUDU...

[Patrick Gunning]

The big reason I can see between Chris Thile's pretty universal advocacy of DUDU and Evan's advocacy of rest strokes is that Chris is a very improvisational player whereas Evan's playing is predominantly pre-arranged. The big advantage to playing DUDU as much as possible, even if if makes a certain individual move in a song awkward, is that it takes the thinking out of the right hand. If I'm improvising and I decide in a split second that I want to do some other run than normal, the same DUDU rule applies and all I have to think about is the new left hand work required. If I try to do the same thing in a place where I normally apply a certain pattern of rest strokes based on which strings I cross, but change that pattern of notes, my rest stroke pattern no longer applies. Thus, in an improvising situation, consistent DUDU eliminates about half of the "brain to mandolin" trouble.

But if you're playing something like Evan's William Tell, that doesn't really matter since it's a note-for-note recitation of a predetermined arrangement.

[Rob Gerety]

Whenever these threads pop up - and there are a lot of them - I feel compelled to mention one thing that might possibly cause some readers confusion. My understanding of DUDU is that you pick down and up in rhythm - so in 4/4 time you pick down on 1, up on AND, down on 2, up on AND, down on 3, up on AND, down on 4, up on And. The pick movements occur even if there is no note played on a particular beat - you just don't pick a note on that beat. But your pick movement occurs anyway. You basically pick air. This sets up a rhythmic movement of the hand which I think helps you keep good time and also helps provide emphasis on certain notes in a rhythmic manner. It helps give your playing drive.

I mention this because it caused me a lot of confusion when I was starting out teaching myself to flatpick guitar. I somehow stupidly got it in my head that the up down related to notes being played, not to beats.

[Jim Broyles]

Rob, I'd say the up down does pertain to notes, not beats. A lot of my soloing in 4/4 involves 4 pick strokes per beat, so it wouldn't be down on only the beat.

[Rob Gerety]

Yea I know what you mean Jim. This is hard for me to express. The idea is to get you hand moving and aside from ornaments here and there keep it moving at the same rate even if there are spots where there is no note to play. Do you know what I am trying to say? For instance, even if you don't pick a note but instead use a hammer on - your hand keeps moving as if you are picking it. Does this make any sense?

[G string]

what is the advantage of learning the FFcP?

josh=)