A-Style vs F-Style - Is there a sound difference?

[WolfMoon]

Hello All,

I have been playing guitar as a hobby for 20+ years and I have always had an interest in learning to play mandolin & banjo. I grew up seeing the F-style mandolin most of the time but I noticed that most of the lower priced models are the A-style. I was wondering what the differences are between the two. I prefer the look of the F-style, but I would have no problem buying an A-style to start off with if it could save me a little bit of money.

Also, I have noticed that the guitar makers I am familiar with, Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, Washburn, Ibanez & Dean, all make mandolins. Are there any brands out there that strictly make quality mandolins but a newbie such as myself not know about. I've heard good things about Kentucky from various reputable sources, but as with anyone trying to sell a product, if you read it's description they are going to say it is one of the best and so on.

Thanks for any help you may be able to give!

[sunburst]

I can't find them, but there have been many threads on this very topic. When search-guru Mike gets here he'll probably link to them.
Basically, no, there is no difference in sound attributable to the points and scrolls.

[sgarrity]

What John said!

[Steve Ostrander]

You will save some money and get a better value in an A style. It takes a lot of extra work to carve and finish that scroll.

If you post what your budget is, you will probably get more detailed advice here.

[JEStanek]

The placebo effect makes those who like F styles think they sound better. The opposite effect holds for fans of the A style. If there are differences in sound, and these differences in sound are different than those between mandolins made out of similar woods and similar construction by the same builder, I would say the differences in sound between body shape would be very subtle IF at all.

Jamie

[Willie]

Lets face it, there aren`t to many F`s or A`s that sound like other F`s or A`s made by the same builder...Woods vary and its not likely that wood from the same tree would be used on all F`s and A`s...This is a hard one to answer honestly....I`ve seen A`s that would blow away a particular F and I`ve seen it the other way around.....Willie

[Hans]

I always look forward to these questions...

You might go to my website and listen to the F5C and A5C clips...

[sgarrity]

Hans, don't you build your A- and F-styles slightly different?? I seem to remember a discussion of you using different woods for the blocks? Based on the sound clips, the F5C sounds stronger especially in the bass. The A5C seems to lean more toward the treble side of things. At least that's what my laptop speakers and clogged up ears tell me!

You have always maintained that your A- and F-styles sounded different. And you've played more of them than anyone else so I would tend to agree with you!! But on the whole I think the sound of both styles is similar enough that the difference could never be narrowed down to the body shape.

[mandroid]

W-M, Ya Gotta get one of each, to really Know.
But to differentiate them more, the A has to be like .. a short neck Oval sound hole, from the teens or 20's,
and the F5 has to be recent, from a living Luthier.

Long neck F hole A5 and F5 are , yup, darn close, If they are of equal workmanship and materials .

[Chris Biorkman]

IMO, there is no difference. I had a Kimble A right before I bought my Kimble F, and I can't tell a difference at all. That said, I prefer the looks of a nice F.

[Rob Gerety]

In my opinion, no - no difference. That said, I prefer the appearance of a nice A.

[WolfMoon]

Thanks everyone, all of your post have been more than helpful. I think I am going to try the Kentucky KM-150 beginners package from folkmusician.com, it seems like a great price for the package. Then eventually I will get an F style when I am a seasoned player. I wish they had forums like these back when I started playing guitar.

Thanks again everyone,
Chris aka WolfMoon

[WolfMoon]

Oh yeah, Chris, my wifes maiden name is Bjorkman and Rob, my wife & I are moving to Vermont in the spring.

[JeffD]

Lets face it, there aren`t to many F`s or A`s that sound like other F`s or A`s made by the same builder...Woods vary and its not likely that wood from the same tree would be used on all F`s and A`s...This is a hard one to answer honestly....I`ve seen A`s that would blow away a particular F and I`ve seen it the other way around.....Willie

In other words, the difference between individual mandolins is going to be bigger than the difference between any given A and any given F. The difference is belowthe noise level.

[Rob Gerety]

my wife & I are moving to Vermont in the spring.

Just in time for mud season. Where in Vermont are you going to land?

[WolfMoon]

Just in time for mud season. Where in Vermont are you going to land?

Oh yes, we were told all about mud season when we were up this summer visiting her family. We're more than likely going to end up in Burlington or somewhere close by it.

[John Kinn]

The more I listen to the Brentrup F and A , the harder I find it to distinguish them...

[Hans]

Shaun, the F5C's and A5C's all have mahogany blocks.
John, the difference is subtile, but can be heard. I feel that the A's are a bit more "refined" in the trebles, while the F's just have more power. I don't think it's the shape so much as the mass of the extra blocks and the mass of the scrolls.

[un5trung]

I read someone else in the Mandolin Cafe write something to the effect of "beware of scroll envy." Scroll envy -- that's a great one, I love it! I have two a-styles, oval and d-hole, and love them both. That being said I'm on the lookout for an f-style myself, but am in no hurry. I like the idea of the f-style because it allows the user to play further up the neck, and of course it really does sound different. I'd respectfully disagree with the person whe wrote that the difference in sound is due to the placebo effect.

For what it's worth my advice is simple: find a store that has a selection of both, play them all and buy the one that sounds best regardless of the shape.

[allenhopkins]

The inspiration that hit Orville G to build a mandolin in the F-shape, has impacted a century of mandolin players and builders. Whatever the acoustic advantage, disadvantage or total irrelevance of the F-style silhouette, no one can deny its hold on the imagination.

What interests me is that even builders who don't usually build F-styles, like Breedlove, pay homage to the "F look" with asymmetrical bodies -- a little block where the scroll would be, a small point on the other side. As I've said, it's as if the '57 DeSoto had become the icon of automotive design, and cars with fins were still considered superior.

[woodwizard]

I would say slight...We could talk more on the difference (in sound) of oval holes vs f-holes then the sound difference in an A model and F models. IMHO

[theCOOP]

I don't think it's the shape so much as the mass of the extra blocks and the mass of the scrolls.

That's what I would've suggested. That is the extra mass of solid wood at the scroll, if anything, that changes the sound charactoristics.

It would be acting as a Mass Damper. Mass Dampers are also used (among other places) in automobiles to reduce road noise and vibrations from the road.

As example. There is a large heavy weight in the dead centre of mt steering wheel. There is another very large chunk of luminum as part of my centre console as well as a large chunch of iron bolted to me front motormount. This one is there to absorb the vibrations from the engine and also helps to minimise sheet metal fatigue on the bottom of the radiator core support.

[sunburst]

From what i understand, the "mass dampers" that car manufacturers use work this way, more or less:

A car is designed and prototyped then taken for test drives. If there is unacceptable vibration somewhere, the maker may decide to add a weight to damp the vibration. The reason it works is because the extra mass lowers the resonant frequency of the component of the car.
Now a little background on that; A car part will have a resonant frequency, think of a tire slightly out of balance. As you speed up, the tire will start to vibrate through some speed range, but faster than that speed range the frequency becomes too fast for the mass of the tire (and wheel) so the vibration smooths out. The vibrations are damped by the mass of the tire/wheel being too great for the frequency of the 'input'. So, if there is a vibration in a drive train, adding mass to the transmission (for example) can smooth it out by raising the mass of the drive train and lowering it's resonant frequency. (Those of us who are old enough to have driven cars and trucks with heavy steel wheels and large bias ply tires will remember that the tires tended to stay balanced better than the lighter aluminum alloy wheels with lower profile radial tires of today. The much higher mass of my F250's wheel/tires makes them considerably easier to balance than the much lighter alloy wheels on my car.)

The vibrations that convert string energy to sound in mandolins are primarily the top, back, and air modes. Dave Cohen has found that the scroll is not involved significantly in those modes, so the extra mass of the scroll doesn't make much difference in those "important" modes.
The mass of the scroll might affect the frequency of the bending mode of the whole mandolin, though it's mass is more or less centered so the effect might be limited by that positioning.

Now, mass added to the transmission of a car cannot be expected to have much effect on a tire vibration, and in a similar way the mass of the scroll added to the rim of a mandolin cannot be expected to have much effect on the top, back, and air modes that are the primary producers of sound. I'm not saying that the mass of the scroll has no effect at all, but I think the analogy to automobile "mass dampers" could be misleading to folks trying to understand how mandolins work and what effects things like scrolls have.

[theCOOP]

Wow. I thought it was a reasonable comparision without being too technical. My bad and my sincerest apologies.

Wow.

Coop

[JEStanek]

And you guys thought we only learned about finishes, tuners, and tailpieces around here. The builders who contribute here have so much to teach us... I'm thankful for it every time.

Jamie