Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

  1. #1

    Default What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Hey everyone, I know this is not much of a mando question but I hope you don't mind. We have a young band and are cutting our first CD - we don't have much money in the bank - and the cost of the CD production will probably be underwritten by 2-4 of the 6 members. Here's a question for you guys that have been here before:

    Let's say the CD's are paid off. Then let's say someone leaves the band. What is the norm, do you continue to pay the person who left? Does the answer have anything to do with who originally funded the CD project? Just curious. We're going to have a discussion soon and I'd like to do what is the accepted way.

    Thanks,
    Patrick

  2. #2

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    I'd say that the income generated by the CD should first be used to pay off the investor(s). After that, I'd say profits are divided between the band members in any way the band determines. If someone leaves, they don't leave the CD so they're entitled to their share.

  3. #3
    Registered User HawksVox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Oxford, OH
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    I had a similar situation several years ago and it ended with damage to some good friendships. My best advice to you is get together with the whole group--everyone who has a financial and/or creative interest in the band and this particular CD project--and write down the terms of understanding wherein the possibility of turning an eventual profit is covered.

    1. Determine who gets what percentage of the profit after all expenses are paid for, and then determine what happens when and if the group loses members or disbands completely. It may be your intention to pay every member for the next hundred years as long as money is coming in, but that's unrealistic and a horrible burden on whomever has to keep track of every penny (and it may come down to that before everything is said and done). I'd suggest paying out shares for a set amount of time and after that, the creative person (songwriter, arranger, whatever makes the music truly "yours") gets the remainder from then on.

    2. If there's a particular "sugar daddy" who underwrote most of the expenses for the whole project, then that person gets an increased share until the day when the original investment is paid off, and then it's an equal share with everyone else who ponied up money. Members who did not invest in the project before the break-even date get the smallest share, or possibly a one-time payout of an equal share at a predetermined date, say after three months have passed.

    3. If somebody decides to leave, their share is guaranteed until the date when payout ends just like everyone else, BUT they get no further payment from any other projects, gigs, contracts, etc.

    4. The most important thing is to get this all decided while everyone's happy and BEFORE anybody leaves. The worst time to make money decisions is after you've already made the money.

  4. #4
    Registered User Jon Hall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Nacogdoches Texas
    Posts
    1,295

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    A band is, in a business sense, a partnership. A successful band/partnership has a contract that includes plans for the eventual break up and an exit policy for anyone that leaves voluntarily or is given the boot. Often times the contract includes details regarding a spouse's interest in the monetary failure or success. This consideration is important in the event that a divorce occures or if one of the band member's die.

  5. #5
    Registered User swampstomper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Arnhem, the Netherlands; Nanjing, China; Ithaca NY USA
    Posts
    1,868

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    I am sure most if not all the pro. bands have partership agreements. Sometimes it's not all the members. I remember reading that the Country Gentlemen in later years were Waller + Yates, they had the partnership and hired sidemen (Lawson, Bailey, Allred...) with whom they have separate employment agreements. That makes sense if you have one or two core people who plan to stay together. In the case of LRB where no original member is still there, I imagine there was transfer of the title/partnership at some point. I am guessing Sammy came into the partnership at some point and then kept it going,.

    I second the recommendation to get everything in writing. Simple partnership agreements are easy to set up. Corportations are another thing.

  6. #6
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    414

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    The CD sales should first pay off the investors before anyone starts taking a cut. Then I would make the rest as uncomplicated as possible. I would agree up front that if someone leaves the band, they will no longer get a cut of CD sales. Is it fair? Not really, but it is simple and manageable.

    The important thing is to have fun. I've tried turning bluegrass into a business venture, and it sort of loses its magic. Is that to say that you shouldn't get paid? No, if you play a gig you need money to cover your costs and hopefully get a little extra to take home. But when you get involved in complex business arrangements, things can get sticky real quick.
    I used to be in a band with some pretty good young pickers. Our bassist was nominated for the IBMA bassist of the year a few years back--not for her work in our band though. We could have never gone pro, but we were good enough to play some festivals. I considered these guys to be my best friends, but I haven't talked to two of the members in 8 years--partly because of the way the band broke up.
    If you agree to pay former band members a percentage of CD sales after they leave the band, things could turn bad. Usually if you leave a band it is not on the best of terms. Then you will have to arrange to send a check every so often to the former member. Then the former member starts to suspect that the band isn't being honest about CD sales, so that they don't have to give him his fair share.
    In short you can avoid this by making the arrangement as simple as possible. If I could go back, I'd do away with the CDs, business cards, in-ear monitors, etc., and just pick and have fun with my friends.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Your premise is faulty. First you ask about the "norm for a bluegrass band", then you start talking about profit. I'm confused.

  8. #8
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    Your premise is faulty. First you ask about the "norm for a bluegrass band", then you start talking about profit. I'm confused.
    That is an oxymoron isn't it?

  9. #9

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    I put all the money in a plastic bag in the tank with my pet piranhas, and if anyone wants some they can just take it.

  10. #10
    Registered User Perry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Rockland Cty, NY
    Posts
    2,145

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Your premise is faulty. First you ask about the "norm for a bluegrass band", then you start talking about profit. I'm confused.
    Yes you beat me to it...a very confusing question

    Here's another question..how much $$ have any of you spent (collectively as a band) on a full length album soup to nuts with the knowledge that you will be selling 10 to 15 units a show on a good day?

    The break even point gets to be fairly high for most of us.

    $5k can easily be spent; at $15 a unit you need to sell 333 before the profits trickle in.

    What did John Duffy used to say..."this bluegrass ain't much fun but we sure do make a lotta money playing it"

  11. #11
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Copperhead Road
    Posts
    3,136

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Considering the tens of dollars to be made, this is quite a conundrum.
    "If I had a million dollars, I'd just play bluegrass until it was all gone........"
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    335

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    I'd agree that once a band member is gone - they shouldn't get their split (unless they where the primary funder of the project). They are no longer playing shows to push the CD's. As this is likely your main source of sales, they aren't doing the work.
    Pen

    "How many of you folks have seen that movie "O Brother, Where Ya At?"--Ralph Stanley

    Turkey Creek #17
    1958 Gibson A-40
    Ovation MM-68
    2002 Martin D-28

  13. #13
    Registered User Rex Hart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Lebanon, Mo.
    Posts
    302

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    First off, with modern recording technology, it is fairly inexpensive in the long run to just buy your own recording equipment and do the project yourselves. I own all the recording equipment for our band and we split up CD sales evenly, but only with current members of the band regardless of who was on the recording. This is made clear whenever there is a personnel change. You can get a good , professional recording if you just take time to get the eq's set properly and have a good ear at mix down. We use a 12 track recorder that you can buy used now for about $500. We then send off to an online duplicator that bar codes and shrink wraps them with no limit on the amount you have to order. Commercial studio time is too expensive and you have to rely on someone else's ears other than your own.
    08' Gibson Fern
    1964 Martin D-18
    www.potterswheelgospel.com

  14. #14
    Registered User Perry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Rockland Cty, NY
    Posts
    2,145

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Rex

    True enough but many of us don't want to deal with the technical aspect of things...it starts to get a little tricky with vocal overdubs, punch-ins, headphone distribution amps; baffling and isolation, quality outboard effects; quality mic pre-amps and mics, quality studio monitors, internal clocks blah blah blah...

    Also with multiple people in a band sometimes an outsider's ears are exactly what is called for.

    BTW what online duplication house is making you less then 1,00 units? Are they CD-R's and not "real" CD's?

    Perry

  15. #15
    Howling at the moon Wolfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Black Mountain, NC
    Posts
    388

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Getting back to the original question, I don't know that there really is a "norm" - you can pretty much divide profits any way you want as long as everybody's agreed on terms beforehand. It does seem only fair for whoever's funding the project to recoup their investment before profits start being distributed, however. (JMO, and the way I've always done it.)

    Pen's point is well taken, that your primary source of sales is likely to be live shows, in which case it's arguable that the current members of the band at any given time are the ones making the CD sell. So part of the agreed-upon-in-advance deal could be (doesn't have to be) that once a member departs they forfeit their share of sales, which has the added advantage of making bookkeeping a lot easier. (There could also be the option of "buying out" a departing member's share, if that makes forfeiting future profits easier to swallow...and you can agree in advance on a figure.) Gig sales can then be divided among current members of the band who appear on the CD, or even current members of the band whether they're on the CD or not - I heard through reasonably reliable sources that one prominent bluegrass band splits gig CD profits evenly among current band members, even those who aren't on any of the CDs, their rationale being "if you're in the band you're in the band."

    It's all up to you. But I would reach an agreement amongst yourselves before proceeding with the CD. As they say in France, les bons comptes font les bons amis (Good accounts make good friends).

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    4,881

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    I burn my CD`s 50 at a time and let the band members know what the cost is and they each pay one forth or that cost if they want to be a part of it, as soon as those are sold I do it again and if someone leaves the band before those fifty are sold then I continue to give him/her money until the last fifty are sold...So far this has worked great and I haven`t had but one change in the band members and the newcomer waited until he could join in to invest in the deal....I do my own CD burning and labeling etc so the expenses aren`t all that much....Willie

  17. #17
    Phylum Octochordata Mike Bromley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Canucklehead from Cowgary, Oilberta. Spend half my time in Iraq. A wacky life.
    Posts
    994

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretbear View Post
    Considering the tens of dollars to be made, this is quite a conundrum.
    "If I had a million dollars, I'd just play bluegrass until it was all gone........"
    ...beginning with a nice Loar.....
    Root'n Toot'n World trav'ln Rock sniff'n Microscope twiddl'n Mando Mercenary
    Tuxedo Mines
    Triggs Mandolins
    Youtube Stuff

  18. #18

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    >>>BTW what online duplication house is making you less then 1,00 units? Are they CD-R's and not "real" CD's?<<<

    I'm not sure what Perry uses, but I've used kunaki.com to do our cd's. There is no minimum order, and I've not had anyone complain about the quality of the CD.
    Sheryl --- Me

  19. #19
    Registered User Rex Hart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Lebanon, Mo.
    Posts
    302

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Yes, Kunaki.com is who we use to print our cd's. You only have to order one every six months to keep it current. I understand that some people might not want to get in to all of the outboard equipment etc, but it is a lot less expensive in the long run and you can take all the time you need to get your mando break just right! But back to point.....we always divide everything evenly between the current players because as has been stated in a previous post, the players are selling the cd's by their performance.
    08' Gibson Fern
    1964 Martin D-18
    www.potterswheelgospel.com

  20. #20
    Registered User Perry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Rockland Cty, NY
    Posts
    2,145

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Sorry to veer off again but just to point out the difference:

    The CD's are actually pressed from a glass master just like the ones you buy in a store. Supposed benefits....better audio, better shelf life, better quality control but perhaps most important more scratch resistant then a CD-R.

    I suspect that kunaki is burning CD-Rs

    I've used Oasis in the past. Then they had a 1,000 mimium for a true CD duplication but I hear they dropped that recently to a 300 minimum.

    Kunaki looks interesting though and sure does allow the truckloads of cash to flow in earlier

    Perry

  21. #21
    Howling at the moon Wolfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Black Mountain, NC
    Posts
    388

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    I've used Oasis in the past. Then they had a 1,000 mimium for a true CD duplication but I hear they dropped that recently to a 300 minimum.
    They have indeed. They'll do CDR short runs too, down to a single copy, but 300 is their new minimum for "real" CDs.

  22. #22

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Very good opinions, thank you all!
    Patrick

  23. #23

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    What did John Duffy used to say..."this bluegrass ain't much fun but we sure do make a lotta money playing it"
    ha.

    Working this stuff out in advance with a contract is where it is at. If you are at all serious, get a lawyer involved. Than everyone knows everything and everyone is a lot happier about it.

  24. #24
    mandolinist, Mixt Company D C Blood's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Madison, Tennessee
    Posts
    896

    Default Re: What's the norm for a bluegrass band?

    We have had what I guess you would call a "regional" band for almost fourteen years now. Our CD policy is this: All CD money is split equally among current members .. If you leave the band, you lose your rights to CD money. I don't know how legal this is, but it is understood by all members and we've never had any problems with it.
    D C Blood Mixt Company
    '96 Ratcliff Silver Eagle/Angel
    '09 Silverangel F5 distressed
    '09 Ratcliff A model distressed
    ..Blue Chip pick user...
    www.facebook.com/davidcblood
    www.facebook.com/silverangelmandolins
    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?albumid=109 photo album url

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •