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Thread: Distressing, what have we come to?

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    Default Distressing, what have we come to?

    This is not intended as a negative toward any builder who produces a distressed instrument. You are only doing what the market demands and that is good business.

    What is it that would make a consumer want a fake distressed instrument? Those of you who would seek out and prefer an instrument with an apparent age please tell me what the attraction is?

    Is there a part of you that says, " I am pretending to have something or be something that I am not"?

    Help me understand because I am just curious. Thank you in advance.

    chuck

  2. #2

    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    I used to think the same thing, until I saw what Ken Ratcliff was doing. I was going to order one of his A style mandos with the standard lacquer finish, but his distressed, varnished model looked so beautiful, I was intrigued. I've decided that is what I'd like.

    I've got a pretty, shiny Weber that I adore. Something different in a second mando, and distressed is different, is what I want. Simple as that.

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Some people just like to "blend" in and others like to say "Hey, look at my shiney new instrument". Nothing wrong with either, just personal taste. Of course, that's being a little silly, but there are those who prefer that their new stuff looks new. I'm kind of neutral on new shiney stuff - doesn't bother me, nor pump me up. Why does Warren Buffet drive around in an older model Chevrolet rather than a new Rolls Royce? Probably has a better answer than I provided!
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    You bring up a good point. It is one thing to want a less than gloss finish. Why don't you just buy a used instrument that "looks right"? I have to admit I've thought about distressing. Maybe I just want to look like I've been playing a long time. That illusion will disappear as soon as I start playing.
    It is a part of ego and image. I know when I carry and use my Leica M cameras I somehow feel superior to the Nikon owners. Of course, that's because I am!
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    My theory about this is that after Gibson came out with the distressed F9 several years ago at such a reasonable price ( i remember seeing one at the Gibson showcase about 5 yrs. ago for $1799) , this was a hot selling item becuase you could get such a sound (and that Gibson name on your headstock) for so little cost, as of late they have marked these up alot higher. My point is the F9 has been a very popular model, so has the A9 distressed. And other builders, especially in the mid-class market, Kentucky,Morgan Monroe, Washburn etc.. ( not namimg any particulars here, don't get upset) These companies that sell mandos for less than $1k probably move more product than any other mandolins, and in a dying music market, it all comes down to a recap of Economics 101, supply and demand.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    There is a long standing tradition, among violin builders, of building "bench copies" of "important" antique instruments. It is a learning tool for the builder, studying and replicating the details of a centuries-old instrument built by a master. The replication of details often extends to replicating centuries of wear and repair, and the skills involved in doing that convincingly are hard won. Making something new look genuinely old takes special skills, methods and tools that are not easily gained.

    It has been a long time since most players have been able to buy and play a Stradivari violin, an Amati, a Guarneri, or other "important" violin, so bench copies have often been the working musician's answer to the inability to use the genuine articles.

    You may have noticed that the price of a Loar seldom dips below $100,000 these days. That puts them out of reach for many players as a daily player, so as with violins, the "bench copy" mentality has led to artificial aging. It's a substitute for an unattainable "real thing" in many cases, and to some extent, it is a fashion.

    Artificial aging, when done well and moderately by someone who has developed the requisite skills can be very elegant, convincing and tasteful.
    Done hastily without first developing the skills and knowhow, done to extreme, it can look like someone took a poorly made instrument and raked it with a weed eater. It can be used as an excuse or mask for poor craftsmanship, it can be done as a joke, it can be done simply to sell instruments into a market where many don't appreciate the difference between the well done and the weed eater variety.

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    Registered User Steve Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    This is not intended as a negative toward any builder who produces a distressed instrument. You are only doing what the market demands and that is good business.

    What is it that would make a consumer want a fake distressed instrument? Those of you who would seek out and prefer an instrument with an apparent age please tell me what the attraction is?

    Is there a part of you that says, " I am pretending to have something or be something that I am not"?

    Help me understand because I am just curious. Thank you in advance.

    chuck
    What is it that would make a consumer want a Blonde instrument? What is it that would make a consumer want a Blueburst instrument? What is it that would make a consumer want an instrument with a highly figured back?... It's a look. It's personal preference. When we see something that interests us little jolts of electricity go off in our brain that makes us think "I like that!" It's not right... It's not wrong... It's just us. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we're trying to be anything other than just us.
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    John H has responded eloquently. I would just add that some musicians just like the look of an antique instrument, the "patina" as the dealers call it, but would like the reliability and structural soundness of a new mandolin, covered by manufacturer's warranty.

    There may be an element of "posing" involved, though I think it's more the case with the teenaged rockers and their artificially aged Strats and Les Pauls. Some older instruments, rightly or wrongly, have acquired desirability for better sound and construction; we all know the premium placed on Lloyd Loar mandolins, and to a lesser extent on slightly later models. Top-rank musicians are often seen playing obviously worn instruments. "Pre-CBS" Fender guitars, late '50's Les Pauls, "herringbone" D-28's command premium prices as well.

    I think some musicians may be trying to fool the audience and fellow pickers into thinking they have "vintage" instruments, but the vast majority just like the look of a "played-in" instrument, and rather than try to find and afford a 75-year-old F-5, would just as soon acquire a "pre-aged" model that meets their musical needs.
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Selling items that looked distressed is not unique to the musical instrument business, nor was it invented here. Anybody bought a new pair of Levi's in the last 30 years? This comes up from time to time here. The first distressed instruments I recall seeing were Gibson guitars, specfically the Robert Johnson models.
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    The only dicey moment will be when someone invariably asks "What year is yer F-5?"

    In 13 years from now, you can safely answer "It's a '22" and no one will be the wiser

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    What is it that would make a consumer want a fake distressed instrument? Those of you who would seek out and prefer an instrument with an apparent age please tell me what the attraction is?

    Is there a part of you that says, " I am pretending to have something or be something that I am not"?

    Help me understand because I am just curious. Thank you in advance.
    It's simple...

    I want an old Telecaster...

    I can't afford the 100-125K for an old Blackguard...

    So-ooo, I built a Telecaster that looks, plays, sounds, and feels as close as I can get to an old instrument.



    Like I said, it's simple...

    And it's been going on for hundreds of years....

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    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Quote Originally Posted by nate w View Post
    My theory about this is that after Gibson came out with the distressed F9 several years ago at such a reasonable price ( i remember seeing one at the Gibson showcase about 5 yrs. ago for $1799) , this was a hot selling item becuase you could get such a sound (and that Gibson name on your headstock) for so little cost, as of late they have marked these up alot higher. My point is the F9 has been a very popular model, so has the A9 distressed. And other builders, especially in the mid-class market, Kentucky,Morgan Monroe, Washburn etc.. ( not namimg any particulars here, don't get upset) These companies that sell mandos for less than $1k probably move more product than any other mandolins, and in a dying music market, it all comes down to a recap of Economics 101, supply and demand.
    The F-9 and A-9 were never distressed, just matte finish and rather plain appointments. Companies charge extra for their distressed instruments, not less.
    Bill Snyder

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Spruce that tele looks great. I used to have a '53 when I was about 15 years old. Got it used for $90.00. No way could I afford one now.
    mikeguy

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    There is also the notion that "distressing" an instrument may affect the tone as well (at least with acoustic instruments). I think the idea is to simulate and accelerate the break-in period. I have no first hand experience with this, but I think most of us would agree that a new instrument requires some amount of break-in time to reach it's full potential.
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    I can see artifical distressing if you have an old mandolin with lots of mojo that you are getting repaired. The new parts shouldn't call attention to themselves compared to the rest of the mandolin.
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Perry View Post
    something that interests us little jolts of electricity go off in our brain that makes us think "I like that!" It's not right... It's not wrong... It's just us. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we're trying to be anything other than just us.

    Well said.
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Repairing an old instrument and making the repair look old is an art in itself. Frank Ford had some tips for doing that on www.frets.com. One I recall was painting a new internal brace with coffee to get it to match the color of the old braces.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Here's the main thing I love about building instruments that are going to be antiqued:

    When I was building mandolins way-back-when, I hated the end-game, where one little slip-up or scratch would ruin the whole deal, and create one unhappy customer, not to mention an unhappy luthier....
    (Those of you who know me and my blundering ways will understand).

    But with an antiqued instrument, none of that matters...

    You can build quickly, which I think is one of the most underrated traits of the good builder.
    All the good violin makers I know do what they do with no wasted moves, in the most efficient manner possible.

    Not having to worry about those little slip-ups is the most liberating thing that has ever happened to me as a (half-assed) builder...

    And it makes me appreciate the Ellis' and Collings' of the world all that much more...

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    It's good that it's available for people who want it. What gets me is the extremes some companies go to putting dings, hack marks, etc . into instruments. I have no problem with people getting what they want, but personally, the farthest I'd go is yellowing in the varnish, that just looks great to me.

    Some folks take pride in a beat-to-a-pulp instrument, but I like to take care of my little buddies the best I can, and if they are going to get dinged, by golly, it'll be from me by accident. I feel the instrument treats me better in kind

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Making an antique is incredibly difficult and challenging. For me, it's more for my builder colleagues to oogle and be impressed. In short, builder ego. It is extremely difficult to do convincingly. I can't state that strong enough.

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Yeah, trying to build perfection must be a bear! Funny you should mention Collings as this seems to be either a big plus for some or a minus for others depending upon your perspective.

    Looks like the big boys are manufacturing good ol' beat guitars too...
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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Anybody bought a new pair of Levi's in the last 30 years?
    Anybody ever had a pair of original Levis would understand why you would want a pair of prewashed. Ouch!

    It's simple...

    I want an old Telecaster...

    I can't afford the 100-125K for an old Blackguard...

    So-ooo, I built a Telecaster that looks, plays, sounds, and feels as close as I can get to an old instrument.
    I see, the wanna be consumer. Good point, SB.

    What is it that would make a consumer want a Blonde instrument? What is it that would make a consumer want a Blueburst instrument? What is it that would make a consumer want an instrument with a highly figured back?... It's a look. It's personal preference. When we see something that interests us little jolts of electricity go off in our brain that makes us think "I like that!" It's not right... It's not wrong... It's just us. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we're trying to be anything other than just us.
    Steve,

    I think its a different motivation factor than color preference. I know most of us like an old vintage Martin, at least I do. However, what I like is its history and who played it.

    Not having to worry about those little slip-ups is the most liberating thing that has ever happened to me as a (half-assed) builder...
    I am not sure if I would have shared that perspective.

    chuck

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    The DNA of esthetics is wonderfully mysterious and complicated. To note a beat up Broadcaster,originally designed mainly for simplicity,economy,and speed in production seriously described as exquisite,gorgeous,etc etc is proof enough of that. In fact it IS all those things to most of us...now. Bruce's copy is a beauty. I remember,though,what I thought of the first one I saw and heard back in the early fifties when a fellow Airman named Curly Cardinelli played one in small stage shows and squadron parties. I was certainly fascinated by it,but unimpressed with the appearance. He himself described it as an "electrified broom handle".
    Jim

  24. #24

    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Haven't we done this 10 times?

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    Default Re: Distressing, what have we come to?

    Steve Perry nearly nailed it for me there,my dream Mandolin a "distressed Blueburst" , aaaaaaaagh ! - no sleep for me tonight (OMG !)
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