Dpa 4099

[erick]

Thanks to some helpful advice from Cafe members who chimed in on my thread about lavalier micing an F4, I bought a DPA 4099 miniature cardioid instrument mic last week. It is expensive, but it is hands down the best mic I've ever mounted on my mando. Over the past ten years I've tried almost every mic/pickup I could lay my hands on, and had settled on an Audio Technica ATM 350 with a Fishman bridge transducer into an Aura modeling system, but the DPA is now my fave mic of choice.

Here's why-
1. The hypercardioid pattern of the mic lets you use the mic in the monitor with almost no risk of feedback. I did a gig on a loud, echo-heavy stage on Saturday night with a stage blend of 50/50 mic and Aura, and I 'd never been able to get away with that much before. I might have been able to use more, but we had a rushed soundcheck and i was already amazed at how much better my mando ( a Hilburn F5) sounded in the monitor that I didn't push my luck.

2. The gooseneck clip works beautifully. I can even mic my F4 attaching the mic to the upper point and get a natural feedback-free sound with the mic high enough off the oval hole to stay away from my hand, and not be too woofy from being too close the the hole.

3. The mic has a very focused, clean sound. It seems "sharper" than the ATM 350, not brighter, but more detailed. In live recordings I've done with the 350, it picks up a lot of what's on stage; I'm fairly certain the 4099 will have less bleed.

I've used many different freestanding mics for stage work, but in the swing band I work in now I need to move around. Nice freestanding condenser mics, with the exception of the Shure KSM9 and a couple others, are also prone to feedback when you try to use them in the monitor. The 4099 solves the problem of having a great sounding mic that lets you move with it. Since i was able to hear the subtleties of the instrument in the monitor like never before, I felt I played better and more relaxed , and the other band members confirmed this.

I bought my model with the guitar gooseneck, and bought the violin/mando clip as an add-on ( $60) If you're micing an F-hole mando, just get the violin model. The guitar gooseneck is longer and better for the F4.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Eric Kilburn
Swing Cafe
Wellspring Sound

[lenf12]

Hi Eric,

Can you post a picture of your setup with the DPA 4099 in the gooseneck and attached to your F-4 mandolin? I certainly would like to see it.

Thanks in advance,
Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[foldedpath]

Isn't that a great little mic? I now have two of them; the first was hijacked by the fiddler in our trio after he heard it, so I had to get another one for my mandolin.

I'm still using an external small diaphragm condenser mic in my other band, mainly because I'm swapping between three instruments and haven't figured out the logistics (or the cost) of using three clip-on mics in that group.

[erick]

Here's a picture of my the DPA 4099 on a Hilburn F4. The center of the mic is over the 16th fret and angled about 45 degrees toward the sound hole, which seems to help with both tonal balance and feedback rejection. This mando, unlike Gibson F4's, has an F5 neck length of 15 frets to the body, not 12 like regular F4's.

[steve V. johnson]

Very cool, thanks for the picture!

Congrats on the DPA and especially on how well it works for you!

stv

[Pete Martin]

Thanks for these posts and the pics Erick. I know a number of recording folks who think DPA mics are just about the best anywhere.

A question I have: Does the placement of the mic in your picture in any way make you compromise some things you would do with your right hand? Are there some things you can not do that you could if you were playing with a mic on a stand?

[jim_n_virginia]

It looks like the mic is in the way of playing?

Also if you have a small cond. mic clipped on to your mandolin why not just play into a condensor mic?

[foldedpath]

[QUOTE=jim_n_virginia;720265]

Also if you have a small cond. mic clipped on to your mandolin why not just play into a condensor mic?

It's for all the same reasons someone might use a pickup instead of an external condenser mic: freedom of motion, not being locked down to a mic's sweet spot, less gear to carry and set up (especially if you go wireless). And with the added benefit that you also get 95% of the sound of an external condenser, instead of sounding like you're using a pickup.

Hey, if it's good enough for Chris Thile and the Punch Brothers...

[foldedpath]

Finally got around to snapping some photos:

1) The violin clamp version installed on my Lebeda F5. The gooseneck is adjustable for length, by sliding down that little metal collar at the top of the rubber clamp:



2) The back side of my F5, showing where it fits into a gap in the Tonegard. The height of the clamp is adjustable, within limits. The clamp goes on and off very quickly, just by pinching those two tabs together:



3) My second 4099 on the Weber OM, using the longer guitar clamp. Notice I'm just clamping to the mandolin body here, no Tonegard. The surfaces that touch the instrument are all medium-stiff rubber that doesn't harm the finish (so far). You can adjust how tight you want iit to clamp, and the whole rig is removed when I put the instruments in the case. The violin clamp doesn't fit the OM, and the guitar clamp has a "foot" that's too long and gets in the way, so you might have to cut it off for an application like this. I'm still swapping the mics around to different instruments and haven't decided to do that, yet.



4) A closeup of the mic, pulled out of the foam blimp. It's a sort of mini-shotgun design. The mic element sits at the back end of that long narrow tube. That's why the side and back rejection is so good. It looks like the overall audio quality should be compromised, but aside from a slight high frequency bump, it's a very "natural" sounding mic. I don't know how they did it, but it works.

[Jim Nollman]

thanks for the photos FoldedPath. I've been wondering how that actually looks mounted on a mandolin.

Have you ever done a sound comparison between the 4099 and a Schertler dyn-M on the same instrument? The cost between the two mics seems close enough to make it a choice based entirely on ergonomics and sound. I would guess that the Schertler provides better ergonomics for picking a tune on an oval hole instrument. Your photo suggests that, on an f hole instrument, the 4099 can be just as easily mounted out of the way of fingers.

[Trey Young]

I got a chance to see John Reischman and the Jaybirds this weekend and got to speak with JR after the show. He said they have been using DPA clip on mics on their instruments for about a year now. They use a large diaphragm condenser for vocals and for a solo boost, they did have in ear monitors too. It sounded fantastic and he said they had been very happy with the set up.

[erick]

Hi Pete- You asked if the DPA 4099 on my Hilburn F4 got in the way of my hands. It doesn't affect my left hand at all- the mic is well enough above the 16th fret to be out of the way, and besides, I'm not up there all that often anyway.

I was concerned that the mic ( which uses the longer, guitar model gooseneck with the violin clamp) might hit my right hand, but in performance I've ever hit it in the three gigs I've done so far with it. If I were a wilder, Pete Townsend style strummer on the mando, there might be an issue, but you could always extend the mic higher off the strings to solve that issue.

The position you see in the photo evolved from earlier placements that did have the mic higher, but I found the sound to be slightly more ambient, less focused than I liked, and I could feel the "gain before feedback" equation start to come into play when I wasn't using a pickup. In other words, the closer you put the mic to the instrument, the louder you can have it in the monitor before it howls at you. If you add a little pickup/piezo/Aura etc to the monitor mix, you should have no problem at all.

When I use the 4099 with my F5, I put one foot of the clap under the lower point, hook the other foot under my tonegard, and aim the mic right down into the F-hole, with the shaft of the mic loosely aimed at the monitor speaker It rocks, and the volume you can get before feedback is amazing.

Hope this helps-
Eric Kilburn

[kudzugypsy]

thanks for the review - i was looking at the AT 350, but i think i'll try the DPA.
thats why i like this place.

i did a run of a theater show last summer where i played acoustic guitar, a martin d-18 and just duck taped an AT95(?) to the side similiar to your mount - the sound guy was blown away at how good it sounded, having to deal with on-board pickups 99.9% of the time that sound like ducks quacking - made me realize this was the way to go in the future.

[Keith Wallen]

Hey everyone - I am looking to get one of these mics in the next couple of weeks. Can you give me an info on what type of set up you have with the mic? DI box, volume boost pedal, etc... I am so used to working a mic that I am worried about having it in the same spot on the mando all the time.

I can only afford to get the mic now and will have to wait a little while on any other equip to go with it and am wondering if it will be usable by itself.

[foldedpath]

Hi Keith,

I have a few of those DPA4099's and I'm using them several different ways, depending on which band I'm playing in. For the Celtic trio it's fairly basic because we don't need volume boosts for solos. Any change in relative volume is done with player dynamics, and that's always one option if your band can work that way. With that band, I just use the supplied XLR/phantom power adapter, and run straight to a mixer channel (or house snake), using whatever length standard mic cable we need to reach the mixer. Each of the three instruments (violin, acoustic guitar, mandolin) gets its own 4099 mic.

For very small-scale "acoustic" trio gigs in places like coffee shops, the other instruments aren't amplified, and I just plug the 4099 into a little AER Alpha amp to get the mandolin up to the violin's acoustic output level. So this is one option that might work for some folks -- use a compact acoustic amp like this as mic preamp and monitor, and send the DI output to the main PA mixer. This amp (and most like it) includes an effect send/return feature, where I could patch in a boost pedal if I needed it.

The other band I play in is an eclectic Oldtime/Folk/Blues string band, where the DPA 4099 setup is a little more complicated. We do have solo breaks in some tunes where it's nice to have a boost switch or volume pedal. With this band I'm using a TC Electronic G-Natural floor pedal, a "do it all" gadget that includes mic preamp, phantom power, two-channel blender (which I don't need), EQ, boost switch, effects and tuner/mute switch. The output of the G-Natural runs over a balanced line out to the PA mixer.

As a further complication with this band, I need to switch the inputs among three different instruments, each with their own clip-on mics. I'm experimenting with a wireless rig to make that easier, and also so I can do sound checks from the front of the PA system. Going wireless is a whole other topic and I don't have enough experience with this rig yet to comment on it. So I won't get into that in depth here... except to say that it's definitely one more viable option for preamping and powering the 4099, so you can get a line or instrument level signal for patching into a boost switch, tuner pedal, etc.

Getting back to basics... if all you need is a boost switch or volume pedal, an inexpensive solution would be to patch in a 1/4" TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) cable to an insert jack on the mixer channel where you're plugging in the 4099 mic. Take that line out to a basic boost pedal near your playing position, and send the output of the pedal back to the mixer insert over the same cable. You could patch in a tuner pedal while you're at it. As mentioned above, this would also work if you're using an acoustic amp that has an effect send/return feature (assuming it has a mic preamp with phantom power).

I hope that helps. If you have any other questions, fire away! These ideas aren't specific to the DPA 4099, and I know there are users of other clip-on condenser mics here, so I hope we'll hear about a few more setups.

[steve V. johnson]

This is great, great stuff, esp the pic of the DPA removed from it's foam! Boy, that DPA mounting clamp is a fine design. Smart.

Thanks so much!! Great info.

Say erick, if you're going to sell your AT 350, I may know someone who'd like to have it. If so, send me a PM with price/details?

Thanks!

stv

[Keith Wallen]

foldpath - Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate you taking the time to write that up. It's a big help. I haven't made the purchase just yet but I will let everyone know what route I go and how it went.

Thanks again,

[drewgrass]

hey would you buy the guitar clamp or the violin clamp version. i know i can get the seperate but they are like $70.00 if the guitar clamp works like it seems to in pic 3 i may go that way so i can use on guitar also. or would you just bite the bullet and buy both

[Tbone]

Getting back to basics... if all you need is a boost switch or volume pedal, an inexpensive solution would be to patch in a 1/4" TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) cable to an insert jack on the mixer channel where you're plugging in the 4099 mic. Take that line out to a basic boost pedal near your playing position, and send the output of the pedal back to the mixer insert over the same cable. You could patch in a tuner pedal while you're at it. As mentioned above, this would also work if you're using an acoustic amp that has an effect send/return feature (assuming it has a mic preamp with phantom power).

Question about this - usually, the tuner pedal will mute the signal when you engage it. Using the tuner through an insert, will it still mute the signal while you tune?

[foldedpath]

hey would you buy the guitar clamp or the violin clamp version. i know i can get the seperate but they are like $70.00 if the guitar clamp works like it seems to in pic 3 i may go that way so i can use on guitar also. or would you just bite the bullet and buy both

I bit the bullet and bought both. Actually I bit many additional bullets and got one 4099 for the guitar and another for the mandolin, but that's because I sometimes gig with both instruments and need to swap quickly. And I like being able to keep the clamps pre-rigged to the right gooseneck length and bend angle for each instrument (dig deep hole, pour money into hole, but at least it sounds good).

Anyway, you'll want both clamps and here's why. The violin clamp is sized just right for either violin or mandolin. Violin and mandolin bodies are a standard size, so the vertical shaft doesn't protrude much at the bottom. You can see that in the photo above in the thread. The guitar clamp is different; it's extra long to accomodate deep body guitars, and it's a bit obtrusive on both my OM-sized steel string acoustic and my vintage Dobro. The photo of the 4099 with guitar clamp on my octave mandolin (above) doesn't show how long that shaft is. I'm actually thinking about cutting off the extra length. You wouldn't want that extra length of the clamp shaft on a mandolin, so you'll want both clamp types if you're swapping the mic between mandolin and guitar.

Question about this - usually, the tuner pedal will mute the signal when you engage it. Using the tuner through an insert, will it still mute the signal while you tune?

In theory it should work fine, but there is one caution about signal levels. Some tuner pedals expect to see a fairly low voltage "instrument level" signal at the input, like a passive guitar or mandolin pickup plugged directly into the tuner. The signal coming out of a mixer insert jack is post initial gain setting, and it could run hotter than that, depending on your mixer gain settings. If it's hot enough to distort the tuner input, it could cause problems by clipping the tuner input. No physical damage, but a clipped signal wouldn't tune well, and would sound bad.

I haven't had a problem with the gear I've used this way like the StroboFlip tuner or G-Natural pedal (which I have set for line level input in this configuration), but I can't vouch for all the tuners out there.

[goconnorr304]

Here's a picture of my the DPA 4099 on a Hilburn F4. The center of the mic is over the 16th fret and angled about 45 degrees toward the sound hole, which seems to help with both tonal balance and feedback rejection. This mando, unlike Gibson F4's, has an F5 neck length of 15 frets to the body, not 12 like regular F4's.

Erick,

Would the set-up you use for DPA 4099 with your Hilburn F4 work for an old Gibson A-3, i.e. a "pointless" mandolin? I'm trying to decide between a Schertler-M and the DPA 4099 for my A-3, and I need to figure out if the 4099 can work in terms of stability and right-hand ergonomics on an A-3.

Thanks for any advice.

George

[multi_kulti]

Hello!
I have a question... how can someone attach the 4099 on a round-backed mandolin (and/or another round-backed trad. instrument f.e. bouzouki,oud,saz etc etc) . The only adapters i saw there are for flat instruments..

Nikos

[foldedpath]

Nikos, a bowlback is an interesting mounting challenge for mini mics like this. It might be easier to use one of the mics like the K&K Silver Buller or Audio Technica ATM350 that terminate in an "alligator clip", that might be attached to the tailpiece.

DPA does make a flexible clip for double bass and cello that mounts on the strings behind the bridge. Check out the links for bass and cello on this page, maybe this mount could be adapted to a bowlback mandolin if it isn't too big. Or maybe you could use this idea with just a simple Velcro tab, with the gooseneck outside of the clamp?

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/pro...g&category=118

By the way, I just noticed something interesting on the DPA web site. Looks like they're updating the mics so the cable can be detached at the bottom of the gooseneck, and you can have a choice of the original thin cable or a heavier one. It also addresses a concern I've had about how to repair a broken cable (although it don't think this can be retrofitted to my existing 4099 mics):

From May 2012, the updated 4099 range features detachable cable from gooseneck, so it’s more convenient to mount the mic on an instrument before connecting it. Furthermore, the choice of different cable qualities makes it possible to tailor your mic to the specific task, such as choosing the heavy duty 2.2 mm cable for PA/Live gigs or the easier-to-hide, thinner miniature cable for personal mounting on instruments where you don’t want the cable weight to interfere with your performance. In case of cable break, service is easy and fast.

[Ben Milne]

Nikos, a bowlback is an interesting mounting challenge for mini mics like this. It might be easier to use one of the mics like the K&K Silver Buller or Audio Technica ATM350 that terminate in an "alligator clip", that might be attached to the tailpiece.

I think theres a clip like this for the 4099, designed for brass instruments.

Don't know how successful this would be if on a large body oval hole instrument though might be a bit hard to clip to the tailpiece and get the diaphragm somewhere that sounds good and is out of the way.

[Caruso]

Great info on the 4099, I've been thinking about getting one for my Tacoma M-3. I tries a Baggs radius a couple years ago but the clamp was not wide enough to fit the M-3 body. Can anyone tell me how wide the clamp can be set for mandolin?

I'm thinking I may need the guitar clam.
Thanks,
Caruso