Affordable mandolins for the playing professional

[Fretbear]

My contention is that there were several other mandolins well above bowlback status available at the time and the lack of a Loar wouldn't have changed Bill's approach to his music.

Not really; he was already playing and had recorded with brother Charlie using a Gibson F-7, the closest thing along with the F-12 to a Loar-style instrument available at the time, having F-holes and an arched top and back, albeit with the bridge set farther back towards the tailpiece. One unintended aspect of Loar's design was that having the bridge set centered between the F-holes, it allowed the clipped-off sound to radiate around the stopped hand instead of phasing back when chopped as it tends to do with an oval-hole. That design innovation, coupled with Bill's revolutionary approach and the Loar's superior response and ability to cut through in the inhospitable acoustic environment of fiddles and banjos, allowed him to exploit it's additional potential as a rhythm instrument, hugely important in his role as a band leader.

[Charley wild]

Not really; he was already playing and had recorded with brother Charlie using a Gibson F-7, the closest thing along with the F-12 to a Loar-style instrument available at the time, having F-holes and an arched top and back, albeit with the bridge set farther back towards the tailpiece. One unintended aspect of Loar's design was that having the bridge set centered between the F-holes, it allowed the clipped-off sound to radiate around the stopped hand instead of phasing back when chopped as it tends to do with an oval-hole. That design innovation, coupled with Bill's revolutionary approach and the Loar's superior response and ability to cut through in the inhospitable acoustic environment of fiddles and banjos, allowed him to exploit it's additional potential as a rhythm instrument, hugely important in his role as a band leader.

Oooh, I don't know. With due respect I can't buy that. You are getting too technical here. You're giving the Loar too much credit. I realize this IS the Mandolin Cafe and a certain amount of prejudice is understandable. But Bill was a very aggressive musician. Innovators always are. I seriously doubt that an instrument was going to slow him down much or speed him up for that matter. While Bill was probably pleased with the added volume of the Loar, I doubt it it was responsible for any great change in direction of Bill's music. Your opinion makes it seem like Bill was searching for a certain mandolin to achieve his sound. I don't believe it. I think the Loar helped him project better but that's about it.

[300win]

No pro musician is going to use any instrument that he has to fight or struggle with to get the tone, volume, sound he is wanting, regardless of what kind it is or what it has inlaid in the headstock. Case in point of something similar, a major league hitter don't use regular old bats that we can go buy, they use a cutom bat made esp. for them.

[jim_n_virginia]

We're ONLY Trying to EXPRESS OURSELVES!

Sorry, I COULDN"T RESIST. THANKS FOR BEING OPEN-MINDED.

[jim_n_virginia]

I go to a LOT of Bluegrass festivals and concerts. I have NEVER (that I can remember that doesn't mean there isn't one LOL!) not ONCE ever remember seeing someone who plays professional or at least professional enough to be playing the BG festival circuit play an Eastman or Michael Kelly etc. And I am not saying there is anything wrong with those instruments because witha good setup they are great for playing but I just don't see any.

I mean I know you have to play what you have. You may not be able to afford a higher end mandolin or you just don't want to spend the money whatever the case.

I have always seen higher end company built like Gibson or Collins etc OR custom built handmade, some well known and many I never heard of.

But saying the music is all in the musician and not in the instrument I just don't believe it.

I mean think about it... you need a serious operation and you contract a very skilled doctor to do this surgery. He is one of the best.

Do you want him operation on you with cheap Pac-Rim tools and supporting medical equipment made in Taiwan and China?

Or do you want the finest precision made stainless steel tools and electronic equipment made in the USA???

[re simmers]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been said.

The better mandolins have sustain that lesser ones do not. Hammer-ons, pulloffs, slides, backslides add a lot to a tune. That's not something, (in my limited experience) I've heard done well on a lesser instrument.

I just watched my Herschel DVD again last night. All of those little moves he did with his left hand had sustain and volume. I have a very good '91 Flatiron F5 (Weber), but I couldn't get THAT kind of volume and sustain from mine. It is doable, but the better the instrument, the more you can get out of it.

When I took my lesson from Herschel about 3 years ago I asked him a few 'summary' questions at the end of the 3 1/2 hr. lesson. Mainly, what's the most important thing I need to do to improve my playing? I have it on tape: #1, Work on your right hand with what I told you. #2, Get yourself a good mandolin. He recommended a Derrington Gibson at the time.

[Charley wild]

[QUOTE=jim_n_virginia;



I mean think about it... you need a serious operation and you contract a very skilled doctor to do this surgery. He is one of the best.

Do you want him operation on you with cheap Pac-Rim tools and supporting medical equipment made in Taiwan and China?

Or do you want the finest precision made stainless steel tools and electronic equipment made in the USA??? [/QUOTE]

The idea that the "Pac-Rim" can't make precision surgical instruments is absurd! The Japanese were making fine STEEL Samurai swords when we were wandering around the woods in buckskins carrying rusty iron axes. The Asian luthiers are making just what they are getting paid to make. If they were getting paid to make mandolins on par with the Collins, Ellis, etc. they would do it and do it well. And look out; they are headed right in that direction!(some of their mandolins are already being used professionally) I recall the American auto industry and the U.A.W. laughing at the Japanese cars back in the early 70's. There aren't laughing now. Jim, your remarks border on racism! I stand by my posts on this thread and that's all I'm going to say.

[sanctuary13]

well, considering the fine samurai swords you refer to didn't appear until the very end of the 14th century, and were centuries from the design we are familiar with, at which time "we" had invented mechanical clocks, magnetic compass, early violins (only 100 years from the modern form), all of Da Vinci's work (for what its worth), as well as intangible things like the Magna Carta. Western Culture was far from the "wandering around the woods in buckskins carrying rusty iron axes". Your own remarks border on racism as well

Sorry, history major lol

yes, the region i feel has little influence on quality, its the methods and intent (and I think that's what Jim meant). I doubt Wuhan, China is concerned with Turkish instruments, but if they were PAID to, then I'm sure it would quickly compete if not surpass.

[JeffD]

I think that it is safe to say that the cafe web site would be a lonesome place were it not for bluegrass music and one W.S. Monroe. I also think that bluegrass would not have evolved as we know it had WSM not found that F5 in the barbershop. No mando available at that time had the tonal qualities and percussive punch of a Loar. When WSM heard that, his music changed quickly, and forever..

Well....

Its not the way I heard it.

I thought Bill's choice of mandolin had more of happenstance than musical deliberation. I was thinking that if he had chosen a Martin style 3 1911 bowlback, which could problably do all that he wanted a mandolin to do, the world of the mandolin would be entirely different.

Not that Lloyd's version of Oville's creation doesn't have some amazing properties, but we may never have appreciated it to the extent we do now if it hadn't been for Bill. And we may now be underappreciating the lost to history accoustic genius that wondered the Martin factory in 1911 when my style 3 bowlback was made.

Or not.

[Charley wild]

well, considering the fine samurai swords you refer to didn't appear until the very end of the 14th century, and were centuries from the design we are familiar with, at which time "we" had invented mechanical clocks, magnetic compass, early violins (only 100 years from the modern form), all of Da Vinci's work (for what its worth), as well as intangible things like the Magna Carta. Western Culture was far from the "wandering around the woods in buckskins carrying rusty iron axes". Your own remarks border on racism as well

Sorry, history major lol

yes, the region i feel has little influence on quality, its the methods and intent (and I think that's what Jim meant). I doubt Wuhan, China is concerned with Turkish instruments, but if they were PAID to, then I'm sure it would quickly compete if not surpass.

I believe that Jim's hypothetical operation was to be conducted here in America with tools and equipment made here. We are, after all, talking about AMERICAN mandolins versus Asian mandolins. My history may be shaky but I don't recall Americans inventing mechanical clocks, magnetic compasses, early violins, or writing the Magna Carta. We certainly benefited from all that "Western Culture" but I don't think we had a hand in inventing.
And while the samurai swords of the 14th century might have been cruder than were later developed they were sure a lot more sophisticated than anything being made in America at that time. It was three centuries later before the first "Americans" were wandering around in buckskins carrying rusty iron axes.

[sanctuary13]

note to self: dont bother talking about anything non-mando on these forums.

[Dick Wade]

A great instrument will inspire and lead the player in new directions. Maybe its the overwhelming desire to own and awsome instrument that drives the player to new heights when he or she gets it. I have played out for many years, some bands were full time jobs , others were part time. I always want the best instrument that I can afford. I usually spend more than I can afford but don't we all. I agree with the idea that its the musician and not the mando, but a great sounding intrument adds that much more to the performance, and they just feel better in my hands. It soothes my ego too.

Can I make great music with a Wasburn? Yes, but I play better and sound better on a Weber or Collings

[mandroid]

So, What does the depreciation schedule look like on your tax forms for your musician's business filing ,
that should indicate what expenditure you can make on the tools of your trade ...

Instruments, amplification, and transportation, and consumables?

NB: You cannot write it off as losses forever, you know..

or it gets re classified as a Hobby, by the tax dept..

[Chris Hasty]

I mean think about it... you need a serious operation and you contract a very skilled doctor to do this surgery. He is one of the best.

Do you want him operation on you with cheap Pac-Rim tools and supporting medical equipment made in Taiwan and China?

Or do you want the finest precision made stainless steel tools and electronic equipment made in the USA???

Sad to say, most of the sharp thingies that actually touch your body in an operating room are made in pakistan. Scalpels, hemostats, pretty much any pointy medical instrument. They're inexpensive, and sharp enough to do the job once. Most of it isn't autoclaved anymore, just disposable.

Sure there are some incredible medical adjuncts made in the USA, but they probably aren't used as much as those simple things. However, the most commonly used medical tools in a sterile setting are the ones from Pakistan. The good ones used to be made in Germany. Actually, the good ones probably still are... I just don't see them too often now. Back in the day, we'd see those nice Solingen hemostats and scissors and hang on to them after a procedure, there were usually extras included in pre packaged kits. They were quality! Now we just toss the Pakistani ones cause they don't last long anyways.

[re simmers]

Hmmm. I would agree that affordable is linked with the "Pac-Rim." I don't know if all "Pac-Rim" mandolins are lower quality. The Yari Alvarez guitars are excellent.

I guess we would need to know if the "Pac-Rim" companies are using aged, quality wood, and have quality craftsmen building them. The 'quality wood' will be noticeable right away. The 'quality craftsmen' may be seen, but won't neccessarily be realized right away. We may not know that until the neck starts to warp, binding comes apart, and neck separates about 2 years after it's built.....or not. That's the stuff everyone, pros AND hacks like me worry about when purchasing an affordable/quality instrument.

[Randi Gormley]

He's a question related but not: i know that the very high quality mandolins that the top professionals have access to are wonderful instruments and would be stellar solo axes. If you're playing in a group, though, or melding with a band with instruments of differing quality, would you still need a top-of-the-line mandolin, or would a lesser one work as well?

[Ken_P]

He's a question related but not: i know that the very high quality mandolins that the top professionals have access to are wonderful instruments and would be stellar solo axes. If you're playing in a group, though, or melding with a band with instruments of differing quality, would you still need a top-of-the-line mandolin, or would a lesser one work as well?

It's my experience that while you can pull good tone out of pretty much anything (so long as it's set up properly), better quality instruments will make it easier to get what you want without strain. The important point here is that while every instrument has it's own properties, you should be in charge of the tone, not the mandolin. The better the instrument, the easier it is to dial in on the sound you're trying to make, and if you're lucky, your instrument's natural tone will help you get there.

[300win]

In my experience everytime I've picked up a "quality" instrument it just seemed there was more music in it to come out. As some of you know I recently got a Gibson JM, it is an awesome mandolin, and since having it now about a month, it has opened up my mind to a bunch of tunes I had rattling around in there for a long time that just did not come out on the inferior mandolins I've owned in the past. I know it sounds crazy but I think a really great instrument has music in it just waiting to come out when a match is made with a musician that seeks it. No please do not send the guys in white coats, I'm ok.

[JeffD]

note to self: dont bother talking about anything non-mando on these forums.

Hee hee, I know what you mean. We have got some very smart people on this site, brilliant even in their chosen areas of expertise.

[Dagger Gordon]

If you play bluegrass you probably do need a pretty good mandolin because you are going to have to cut through the banjos etc in an acoustic setting, for the most part. Volume, projection, tone and things like that are important and in general you aren't going to get them from a cheap instrument.

On the other hand, if it's not bluegrass and you're dealing with drums and an essentially non-acoustic situation, many of the things you look for in a good acoustic mandolin are less important.

Obviously you need something you quite like and is easy to play, but what is important is now the amplified sound and that is going to have much more to do with what electronics you use. I noticed that David Grisman did some gigs with Jefferson Starship not long ago and seemed to be struggling to get a good sound despite having superb mandolins.

[GTG]

It's my experience that while you can pull good tone out of pretty much anything (so long as it's set up properly), better quality instruments will make it easier to get what you want without strain. The important point here is that while every instrument has it's own properties, you should be in charge of the tone, not the mandolin. The better the instrument, the easier it is to dial in on the sound you're trying to make, and if you're lucky, your instrument's natural tone will help you get there.

Mmmm. I disagree. Sure, attack, type of pick, strings and setup are up to the player to some extent, but the volume and resonance of a mando box make a big difference in tone. One thing I've learned from perusing the builder's forum for a few years (as well as trying out different instruments, of course) is the effect of things like a thick finish, a plywood top, or a poorly made and fitted bridge. I agree that you can pull MUSIC out of any playable mando, but good tone comes out of a good mando. That doesn't necessarily mean one that costs many thousands of $, but it does mean one that's well-built, using the skills and techniques builders have accumulated over several centuries of experimentation in their craft. Tone is a partnership between the player and the instrument. If you gave John Reischmann a plywood $19.99 Galveston mando and said 'make it sound like your Loar' - well, he wouldn't be fooling most of us.

[MikeEdgerton]

Let me apologize for jumping in here a little late as I was out of town until last night but let's keep it civil. It's a big old internet and there are plenty of other places to be going through the gyrations that a few are going through here.

[Greg H.]

Just to toss this though in the mix, the term of Pac rim mandolins express a VERY wide spread. There are, of course, the ones that have been viewed as bottom end. . . .the factory instrument. . .made mostly of plywood, that we have long since generally viewed as Pac rim instruments. Then we move up to fairly nice instrument coming from Eastman or Kentucky. These can be very good instruments, but probably not the level at which most Pros are using (i.e. perfectly good as Black and Decker, but not at the level of a Skill or a Ryobi tool). THEN you're still in the Pacrim, but you're now talking about a Sumi, or one of the Wade mandolins (made by Yoichi Ueda) and you're at the level that is right with Gibson, Weber etc. (I remember seeing a line of people waiting to try out one of Sumis mandolins at IBMA). So it is now not as easy to refer to Pac Rim mandolins as bad as comparing it to American, Australian, Czech, Italian etc. mandolins.

[JEStanek]

I said this in the other thread... Look at the Women with Mandolins thread and you'll see plenty of women at paying gigs (means they're pro's in my book) playing with Fenders and Epiphones. Check out the most recent Fretboard Journal Article on Fred Tackett with Little Feat who plays an Epiphone on stage. Consider Yank Rachel's batwing or Amanda Barrett of the Diddy Bops recorded their first album with a Harmony Batwing. Paul Prespotino's Stradolin.

The greatest sounding mandolin played by a technically gifted and soulful player can easily be undone by a bad sound guy. I think there is a pretty big difference in sound, most often, between what you hear in a venue or from a stage at a festival, than what you hear around a campfire jam or a small class setting. In the latter, I believe you can really hear the nuances that a finer instrument will bring to the mix than the former when the same person is playing.

A final point, I believe that the days of associating an entire region of the world's manufacturing with either quality of garbage product are over really tell us more about who makes the statement than the geography that person is generalizing.

Jamie

[Dfyngravity]

It is really a shame that people think a mandolin is going to sound bad based on the fact that they are from a certain region. You know, not to long ago a certain company went through a period of making mandolins that are not highly thought of or sought after, but since then they have been producing some of the best sounding mandolins offered today. So maybe we will see a change in the quality that is coming from the pac-rim and it isn't so far fetched for some prominent professionals to be playing them.

And for those who don't know, Jimmy Gaudreau is playing a Kentucky the last time I checked and saw. It may be a high end Kentucky, but it is still on the low end (in regards to the price) of the mandolin world and fairly affordable.

I think you are going to see more Kentucky's and Eastman's making appearances on the big stage in the years to come. Once they have a good set up, they are truly very nice instruments.