playing up the neck ...

[jim_n_virginia]

Ok so I can no improvise pretty good, even create variations of what I play on the spot. Take breaks, fills no problem, know plenty of tunes and have a pretty good arsenal of licks and intros and endings muscle memorized.

Everything coming along "swimmingly" well (always wanted to use that phrase! LOL). I am an OK intermediate player. Some might even call me an advanced intermediate but I still refer myself as a "backporch picker"

The ONLY area where I seem to still struggle with is "playing up the neck"

I watch the really great pickers, the one's I admire ... Dawg, Thile, McCoury and even a lot of lesser known professionals locally around me and all seem to play up the neck almost MORE than playing in first position.

I can play up the neck some and have a few tunes figured up there in that elusive area but I notice that the people who can play up there easily can just seem to play up and down the neck with ease nothing really memorized just all the areas they can play in and stay in the same key.

I have Niles Hokkannen's "Bluegrass up the Neck" book and a few other books pertaining to playing up the neck and while it IS a great read and a good book to learn some fundamentals of playing up the neck they just don't really "TEACH" you how to do it it all the way.

I am starting to think that playing all up and down the neck in different positions, octaves, improvising etc. it just something you cannot learn from a book or teacher you just have to PLAY, PLAY, PLAY!

Is it just a learning process that if you continually push yourself to play out of the positions that are the easiest (first position with open strings is the easiest for me) that eventually you all these memorized pathways up the neck?

Also one last question... is using the pinky essential for playing up the neck?

I think it is this last area of study that I need to understand to REALLY understand how to understand mandolin playing comepletely.

Any thoughts on this elusive talent of being able to play "up the neck" at will???

[JeffD]

I find using the pinky essential everywhere, up the neck and in first position.

Have you tried those FFcP exercises? Lots of folks recommend them.

All of your closed chords are good up the neck anywhere. So next time you need a C chord, try your G chord up the neck. And then, while your up there, see what else you can do from that position. Play around with it.

Also if you break open your closed chords, only playing two or three of the notes, those chords and double stops are available up and down the neck, and can be moved across the neck, giving you more options where ever you are.

Sometimes I try to play my well known tunes up in third position, just for fun. Some of the available harmonies are different, different string are open for droning, etc. Play around with it.

[Tony Sz]

I know we all learn a bit differently, but I've found Niles' book "Bluegrass up the Neck" to be the one most valuable book in learning to play across the entire fingerboard. You have to spend some time with it, but the payoff is worth it. I've gone through many other books, and I've learned a lot from them, but I have to say I got the most out of Niles book hands down. (Of course, lots of practice doesn't hurt either.)

[AlanN]

[QUOTE Also one last question... is using the pinky essential for playing up the neck? [/QUOTE]

Not if you call yourself Adam Steffey

Jim, you know the deal, know how to pick, know what to look for. Learn your closed arpeggios. Finger G chop. Play the ascending major scale, starting on Low B with 2nd finger. Should be

B on G string with middle
D on G string with pinky
G on D string with ring
B on A string with index
D on A string with ring
G on E string with middle

Do this pattern up and down, and move the whole thing up one fret, to get it in Ab, then A, then Bb, then B, then C.

Alan Bibey can rattle this pattern off effortlessly and smoothly. Takes time. And it's worth it.

[onassis]

Good thread, Jim! I'm at that place of just beginning to experiment with chording up the neck. My main motivation has been to add some color and variety the 3rd or 4th time through a chord progression, instead of playing those same ol' 1st pos. chords every time. It's a real challenge fretting some shapes cleanly up @ the 8th-12th fret, but I think I'm getting better. The real problem is doing fills and "tie-ins" up there. I feel lost! So I'm limited (for now) to arpeggios and hammer-ons/pull-offs. Seems like more practice and experimentation is the only cure for me right at this moment (gotta get some of those books!)

Can't wait to hear what others have to say!

[fatt-dad]

That guy Steve Kaufman references the "K" position, which is two frets above the chop chord. May want to look at that too.

Not that I play up the neck that is. . .

f-d

[Perry]

Here's an observation or two:

I think the really good players have figured out how to incorporate an open string note so it rings out and that gives them the time to move into the upper position. This way the whole move appears and sounds smooth rather then playing a lick low and then playing a lick high if you know what I mean.
It's sort of an illusion but let's you make a line really stretch the entire range of the mandolin. I think guitar flatpickers refer to these open string pivot points as "floaters".

To me that long legato type of line is sort of cooler then just hanging up top for an extended period; though that can be cool too.

I guess it goes without saying that it helps to have a good mandolin that notes clean and clear in that upper range.

Also there's a bunch of violin books/methods which address finger shifting moves to get from point A to point B. Chris Thile's Homespun DVD demonstrates a few.

And it's been said to learn your favorite fiddle tunes in different keys this will
teach you the fingerboard and break you of of open position habits so they say..... I'm still trying to get 'em to sound good in one key!

[Roger Kunkel]

I've working hard on Ffcp. I think the pinky is really key because when the pinky is there, you can play complete scales without shifting your hand position. If I could get my pinky to behave just like any other finger, I think my playing would make a big jump. I'm seeing improvement, but I've noticed that players that play that way have pinkies that are nearly as long and straight as their ring fingers. Mine are small and bend inward. A case of pinky envy! With three fingers I can play lots of riffs and double stops and chords up the neck, but that's different than playing scales and melodies fluidly up there.

[catmandu2]

If you're not using your pinky, you're really limiting your tool selection. I think it would be like replacing 60% of your sockets with a a pair of pliers. But as a bassist, guitarist, and fiddle player, I'm probably more than a bit biased..

[billkilpatrick]

i'm a lowlander as well - i never stray past the 10th fret and rarely go up even that far. but yes, the pinky is essential - as is a heavy-duty callus.

[journeybear]

... I think the really good players have figured out how to incorporate an open string note so it rings out and that gives them the time to move into the upper position.

Bingo! Not that I'm a "really good player" (except to non-mandolinists) but I've used this technique to shift positions during a solo. It's like a gunfight in a movie, where one guy says "cover me." The solo I worked out for one song in particular worked its way naturally up the neck, and I had to find a way to get back down quickly and cleanly. It's in D, and I worked out a way to hit the E string open followed by a D note on the 1 beat, good and strong, so that E - an unemphasized 1/8 note anyway - goes past so fast it doesn't last. (Poetry? I'm aghast!)

Sometimes, though, you have to find other ways to change positions. If your lead is going upwards, you may have to play a note you would normally play with your ring finger or pinky with your index finger instead - that is, something like index - middle up two frets - index up two frets - and in the proces your hand has moved up the neck. Or play something like an A on the E string with you ring finger then a B with your middle finger. Sort of like crossing from one position to another midstream. The trick is being able to nail that second middle finger note, in this example. Like anything, try it slow first to get it clean, then faster.

I am starting to think that playing all up and down the neck in different positions, octaves, improvising etc. is just something you cannot learn from a book or teacher you just have to PLAY, PLAY, PLAY!

Is it just a learning process that if you continually push yourself to play out of the positions that are the easiest (first position with open strings is the easiest for me) that eventually you have all these memorized pathways up the neck?

You see? You already knew the answer.

I guess you could call them pathways, though I tend to think of the positions of notes in a scale or key as safe points. Same idea. And yes, the more you play, the more you'll see patterns. Like the scale AlanN suggested, which involves starting a scale with something other than your index finger, it's a good idea to get in the habit of getting out of old habits, because it will free you up for alternative solutions to playing challenges. Someone from another thread provided this site, where you select the instrument (4-string mandolin ... yeah, I know), the key and chord, and it gives you all the safe points on the fingerboard. You have to fill in the in-between notes of course, but it's very helpful to see at least that much laid out for you.

The bottom line is in order to play up and down the neck you have to be able to move your hand in the space of an 1/8 note, or even a 1/16 note, and the best way to learn that is to practice and play.

Also one last question... is using the pinky essential for playing up the neck?

Of course it is! How else are you going to play those notes if you can't get your fingers in between those tiny frets?

[Jim Nollman]

Good thread. I recently bought the Mel Bay book, Crosspicking Mandolin. It has several lessons for playing standard tunes we all know up on the 10th, and 12th fret.

The first time i tried a tune, i automatically transposed a 12th fret note onto the 5th of the next higher string. Of course it was much easier to play that way, because it was in my comfort zone. But then it dawned on me, that by transposing downward, I was also defeating the purpose of the lesson, which was to teach me some rather advanced crosspicking, that would extend my use of the fingerboard up to the 12th and even 14th frets.

There's also a few good examples of the "floater" notes mentioned here. Anyway, I recommend this book as an unexpected source of inspiration for us advanced intermediates. I have no connection to the author.

[Chris Rogers]

Can someone outline the "K" position? I think I know what Fatt-Dad is talking about, based on a starter lesson l had back when it wasnt really where I was, ability-wise, and I do something now that I call the K position, but what F-D said makes me less certain. Havent found it on the web, either.