Kit neck connection options

**todda** · May-23-2009, 4:47pm

Looking at a Siminoff F5 or Dola kit... that MAS itch...

This would be my first kit and have some woodworking and instrument refinishing skills, so I am up to it.

I have done some reading of threads on kits and have a question about the neck option.
I know neck set/angle/alignment is critical, I am under the impression that a Dovetail would help to give a better alignment than the dowel option....

Is this correct?

Other advice of the Siminoff kit options that would help?

**sunburst** · May-23-2009, 5:42pm

Having never built a mandolin kit, I have no specific advice or tips for that, but the neck alignment is dependent on the luthier, not the type of joint. In other words, a good joint, meaning well made, is critical to neck alignment and the integrity of the joint, and it is not important which joint is used as long as it is a reliable joint and it is well made.

**mandomania7923** · May-23-2009, 6:13pm

I would get the dovetail and give Roger a call

**mando andy** · May-23-2009, 7:42pm

I would check out the threads on this comparison---many experienced luthiers use the dowel joint with good results and no problems. I did on my kit---very pleased with it---spent lots time on the fitting. I understand that neck angle is not necessarily dependent on type of joint but the fitting process.

Andy
Madison, WI

**Bill Snyder** · May-23-2009, 8:57pm

I don't know that I would call the one a "dowel" joint. That conjures up thought of dowels into the neck block sticking straight out going into a heel just butted up to the block.
The dowels offered on the Siminoff kit are only there to help lock a (hopefully well fitted) tapered, mortise and tennon joint.

**mando andy** · May-23-2009, 9:33pm

You are right--more accurate to refer to it as an mortise and tennon joint..yes the dowels just lock it in.

Andy
Madison, WI

**Lefty Luthier** · May-25-2009, 8:56am

Having built several mandolins using the Siminoff type joint in the past, my only criticism is neck alignment (you absolutely must use a fixture). If you fit the mortise/tenon joint well the dowels do nothing but assure that the bending forces of the strings is better distributed in the headblock. Having said that, from both a precision and acoustic standpoint, nothing beats a properly fitted dovetail. With a bit of precision and lots of patience, you can make a perfect dovetail with a cabinet scraper and rasp.

**todda** · May-25-2009, 9:36am

Thank you Lefty...
Being new to the kit and assembly process - what is a "fixture", and is this explained in the accompanying booklet? I am assuming it aligns the neck and body to the proper angles?
Is something like this available from supply houses?

This is the perfect advise I am looking for increasing the potential for making a good mandolin as apposed to a beautiful chunk of fire wood.

Todd

**sunburst** · May-25-2009, 11:15am

The fixture holds the mandolin body and neck in their proper positions during gluing, it is explained in the Siminoff book, you have to make it rather than buy it (AFAIK).
A dovetail joint, properly done, is self aligning and needs no fixture for gluing.

**todda** · May-25-2009, 12:43pm

Thank you John

1 big problem...
I understood your information, but then I went to your web site and saw your instruments... very nice... this causes beginner anxiety - compounded with my MAS!!!

It will be frustrating to develop these new skills...

Many more questions to come -

Todd

**Lefty Luthier** · May-25-2009, 5:14pm

Despite the best instructions in the world, the only way to master the many fabrication and tuning tricks of the trade is build, screw up, build, screw up, etc. Been doing this for nigh on to 50 years and just yesterday knocked a chunk out of a very nice Red Spruce soundboard while routing a binding notch. Moral: as you gain experience your mistakes will diminish but never vanish.

**Rob Grant** · May-25-2009, 6:45pm

I might also add that as you gain experience you work out tricky and often elegant ways of covering your mistakes. <g>

**bryce** · May-26-2009, 6:19am

I just recently decided to try the tapered mortise and tenion joint. Having cut 47 dovetail joints I figured I owed it to myself to try one of the other choices. I already had a pivoting jig to get the same angle on my dovetails.
If you use your fence or align using your miter slot to assure a straight cut, have the body clamprd parralell to the table, and have your neck clamped at the angle you want, the alignment and angle set themselves.
In other words, with no shims the angle and windage are dead on. Using flat shims you can raise and lower the overstance if needed.
The blocks under the body in the picture is needed to raise the top of the mortise to the same height as the top of the tenion when cutting. This allows the jig setup to stay the same.

Also, after trying this joint on some scrap mahogany straight off the bandsaw (no cleaning up the joint), I had to try two full swings as hard as I could swing against an unfinished door jam to break it loose. Thats with no bond to a back plate. I was surprised.

**bryce** · May-26-2009, 9:59am

Now that I read the OP again, (kit mandolin) My previous post might not apply if the person building the kit didn't cut the mortise and tenion using a jig after the top was glued to the rim. If the kit is one where the blocks aren't glued in but mortise is cut in the block, then there is the extra possiblity of misalignment when gluing the block to the rim assembly.

**Steve Etter** · May-26-2009, 11:05am

Bryce,

I don't want to hijack this thread, but would you mind posting some more photo's of that impressive pivoting jig of yours? I am in the process of trying to develope one for myself and would love to see more of yours.

Maybe an new thread on it?

Steve

**jackc** · May-26-2009, 2:41pm

I built a Siminoff H-5 Mandola kit and used the dovetail joint. The joint was precisely machined, but the neck angle ended up being a little more than it should have been. I'm not quite sure how that happened, but I may well have built in more neck angle when I glued the rim assembly to the plates. It's not hard to put in more neck angle by moving the neck block with respect to the glue area on the top and back plates.

But the joint itself aligned well and needed minimal adjustment. I think you can get good results (or bad) with either one. I just decided to go with tradition.

**Lefty Luthier** · May-26-2009, 5:05pm

Just a data point for new builders: A simple way to insure that you achieve the correct string break angle so that a standard bridge will work properly is to cut yourself a 13 7/8 stick or whatever scale length you choose. Set this atop your neck, allowing for fretboard height and adjust the width of your dovetail until the stick just contacts the top of the bridge saddle with it atop the soundboard. Idiot simple and works every time.