FFcP or playing 'in position'

**Encore** · Apr-29-2009, 7:53am

I am getting back into Mandolin again (for the umpteenth time) and (again) I am making an effort to learn the thing in stead of just noodling...

So... What are the pros and cons of studying FFcP (which is what I have been doing) or learning to play 'in positions' (e.g. first position etc) as would be the way with a traditional classical approach (e.g. Marilyn Mair's book - which I have just ordered)?

It seems to me that FFcP is much easier and much 'freer' in playing all over the neck (even at the dusty end - so long as you can locate the root), so what's the draw back?

**mando.player** · Apr-29-2009, 9:01am

I don't think there are any drawbacks. It's more of a perspective thing. In the end you're playing the same notes and most likely the same the patterns (or combination of patterns). You just have a different point of reference.

I like FFcP because it helps remove the initial learning curve and allows the player to jump right in.

**Encore** · Apr-29-2009, 9:12am

I agree, but what gives me pause for thought is that a player like Marilyn Mair allegedly advocates playing in position (I'd love to hear her opinion on FFcP). Playing in position seems unnecessarily restrictive, especially in the learning process, but I'm a rank amature so I must assume that some professionals see an advantage in the old fashioned approach (also recommended by Bickford - no FFcP for Zahr!)

**ralph johansson** · Apr-29-2009, 9:52am

Originally Posted by Encore

I agree, but what gives me pause for thought is that a player like Marilyn Mair allegedly advocates playing in position (I'd love to hear her opinion on FFcP). Playing in position seems unnecessarily restrictive, especially in the learning process, but I'm a rank amature so I must assume that some professionals see an advantage in the old fashioned approach (also recommended by Bickford - no FFcP for Zahr!)

in certain keys, like c, f and bb, it's very natural to play off the standard positions. by that token, in the key of e, say, i tend to play off the 2nd fret, i.e., 2nd position moved back a half step. ab can be awkward in 1st, but sits nicely in 2nd. it's tempting to also use 3rd shifted up one halfstep, but some figures are more comfortable in pure 3rd, occasionally stretching one fret back.

in the beginning i think it's wise to rigidly stick to some system, and add freer approaches later.
ultimately you should conceive of the fretboard as a continuum.

**groveland** · Apr-29-2009, 9:50pm

Originally Posted by ralph johansson

in the beginning i think it's wise to rigidly stick to some system, and add freer approaches later.
ultimately you should conceive of the fretboard as a continuum.

I think that about sizes it up. Early on you will need some points of reference, whatever the approach.

As time goes on, those points of reference are sighted all over the neck, and they become recognized as movable and repeating patterns. Shortly after that, the patterns are seen as a continuum.

To me, FFcP (and other approaches that present scales as movable modules at the outset) will get you to the 'continuum' far more quickly than violin positions on fretted instruments will.

My take on formal 'positions' is that they are more useful for building a structured knowledge of the fretless fingerboard, which has no landmarks; starting from half and first position and advancing upward as the student becomes more proficient.

I am not certain why formal positions are ever used in guitar instruction, except that the standard tuning is asymmetrical so it's a little harder to see repeating patterns to aid navigation. And I would find formal violin positions don't add a lot of value on the symmetrically-tuned, fretted mandolin; except that they do slice up the continuum into more manageable, though 'static', pieces.

Just my thoughts on it. This from a guy who was self-taught from blues and rock guitar records - everything is moveable and repeatable from day one.

**Encore** · Apr-30-2009, 3:24am

Thanks for the helpful responses. I am also self-taught and from a celtic folk (mando) and blues (guitar) background. I learnt pentatonic box patterns on the guitar which meant I could jam from the word 'go' (almost).

I was jamming last night on the mandolin and was using FFcP (or at least the pentatonic bits of it with the occasional passing tone). Marilyn's book hasn't been delivered yet so I was not in a position to play in position (pardon the pun). All I was doing was figuring out the key and mostly using the first and fourth finger FFcP (if comfortable - most of the stuff was in G or D so that plonked me nicely in the middle of the neck where my lone mandolin could comfortably sit 'on top' of the three guitars. I was playing blind (no music - can barely read anyway - another reason to get Ms Mair's book) so I wasn't thinking in terms of specific notes but intervals (3rd, 5th etc).

I just think that would have been much harder by playing in position.

Having said all that, I intend to dutifully follow Marylin's instuctions because I figure she knows more about it than me. Groveland has a point too. Maybe I just have to 'empty my cup' as the Chinese proverb says, before I can learn more and maybe this is one reason why I have got stuck and given up so often for so long (i.e. that I'm looking for the quick fix which, while it works, doesn't give you the deep understanding that will allow you to move on).

Hmmm.... perhaps I've just answered my own question and siultaneously paraphrased Groveland...

So... the answer could be: FFcP is great but playing in position gives you a different depth of understanding you would not get otherwise and when you have that understanding FFcP becomes even greater?

**John McGann** · Apr-30-2009, 6:08am

Position playing/FFcP (are they different?) is really important as a way of accessing the maximum amount of notes with the minimum of hand movement.

It also combines with other knowledge like chord positions to help you see how to access what will work best for the "chord of the moment".

It also makes the keys that look difficult on paper (Ab, Db, etc.) as accessible as anything else.

Now, there are plenty of times when you want to play more "vertically" (along the length of the fingerboard) rather than "horizontally"- i.e. many 'up the neck' Texas fiddle tunes put 95% of the notes on the high E and a few on A, but nothing on the G and D strings. I suspect two reasons:

• On the fiddle, it is hard to intonate up the neck, and most fiddlers spend most of their time in 1st position.

• The tonal quality of the fatter strings up the neck can be 'cello-like' if you like it, or 'too fat and dark' if you don't.

• The E and A strings on the violin project much better than the low strings. Ever notice the number of fiddle tunes that put most of the action on those two top strings?

To be complete, it's important to realize the pluses and minuses of each way of playing. For fluid jazz playing, it really helps to be able to navigate both axises. For bluegrass, where we play in Bb and B plenty, you need fluency up the neck (especially in 'chop chord position').

If you are playing Irish/Celtic, Old time and fiddle tunes, you'll be fine in open position for 99% of the common repertoire. Bluegrass and jazz styles push you toward using every fret that you paid for

**Encore** · Apr-30-2009, 7:39am

A very informative reply - thanks John.

I'm wanting to break out of just playing Celtic folk and get more adventerous, and definitely broaden my playing to include classical and maybe some jazz/swing/blues. I don't play Bluegrass and never use chop chords (I use Jethro Burns' three-finger chords and double stops mostly. It's a prersonal taste thing but I find chop chords sound dull and dry)

The difference (as I see it) between playing in position and FFcP is that I would move my hand or change my 'root finger' (as appropriate) to change key in FFcP but in playing in position you study all keys in one position. I realise there is a lot of cross-over between the two especially if you start writing out all the keys you can get from on 'position' with FFcP (...which I guess is about 12... hmmm... a dim light is dawning on yonder horizon....)