f-style as american icon

[billkilpatrick]

calling a mandolin "un" banjo here in europe could set the process back a bit ...

buona sera - bill

[Paul Statman]

I'm working on a case sticker design that's in line with this thread. It still needs some work. What do you think?

I like it! Nice one, Mark!

[mandozilla]

calling a mandolin "un" banjo here in europe could set the process back

Why is that Bill?

[billkilpatrick]

Why is that Bill?

indefinite article ... in french, italian and presumably spanish, "un banjo" would mean "a banjo." "non-banjo" would work; as would "banjo (not)" but i'd go right to the heart of the matter and say "it's a mandolin ..."

got the "what is it?" question yesterday from an artist friend of mine from england. i tried "an american mandolin" on her and she said it didn't look american - "... that curly thing" she said, shaking her head. where upon my wife confessed that she never liked the tuning head - " ... too big."

... on the verge of tears, i sulked for hours, my afternoon in absolute tatters ...

[mandozilla]

I guess you folks didn't see those 7-up commercials over in Europe?

calling a mandolin "un" banjo here in europe could set the process back a bit ...

OK I understand now.

[Paul Statman]

indefinite article ... in french, italian and presumably spanish, "un banjo" would mean "a banjo." "non-banjo" would work; as would "banjo (not)" but i'd go right to the heart of the matter and say "it's a mandolin ..."

Got the "What is it?" question yesterday from an artist friend of mine from England.

I don't see why "un-banjo" shouldn't work. As a hyphenated word doesn't it convey differently?

I also got 'the question' while performing in Malibu, Saturday. A dad comes over with his kid, and while telling me his sibling takes music classes, and loves the (our mix of 'dawg' and origianl) music asks me, "What kind of llittle guitar is that"? I just told him it was a mandolin. After three hours of non-stop busking for the ignorant arrogants for $24 (to split between us), I'd had enough!

[journeybear]

I don't see why "un-banjo" shouldn't work. As a hyphenated word doesn't it convey differently?

The point Bill was making was for the benefit of non-English speakers, or people for whom English is not their first language, referring to the letters "un" meaning or inferring "one" in Romance languages. In French and Portuguese "one" (or "a") is "un" (masculine form, also non-gender form), in Spanish and Italian "uno," and worse yet, these are often spoken as contractions, or "un." Since bumper and case stickers operate by making their message apparent at a glance, and that hyphen could be overlooked, someone seeing such a sticker in southern/western Europe is likely to think this sticker is saying "a banjo" - not its intended meaning. Far from it, in fact.

Keeping with the European theme, a sticker could be made with one of those red ø "no" symbols superimposed on a banjo, but again that's not the intent. I believe the intent is to create a sticker that says what it is, not what it isn't. Even so, Bill's suggestion of "non-banjo" might work. No means no, no matter how it's spelled. People from many cultures recognize that.

[billkilpatrick]

point taken ...

genuinely speaking, a "mandolin.cafe" sticker (don't know if they're still available) prominently displayed on the case would go far to distinguish our instrument from any other ... but - failing that - a simple "it's a mandolin" sticker, in drop-out-white lettering (helvetica would do) with a black background would speak volumes.

[Timbofood]

Just tell people for pity sakes!

[Elliot Luber]

Reminds me of a story. I was traveling in Germany for the first time and I asked for a beer (ain bier) at the famed Hoffbrau House in Munich. But in Germany, when you count with your fingers you start with your thumb, so asking for "ain" beer in a loud room and raising your index finger comes across as you want two (LITER SIZE) beers. I don't remember too much after that point.

[JEStanek]

Sehr Gut!! x2

Jamie

[journeybear]

... a simple "it's a mandolin" sticker, in drop-out-white lettering (helvetica would do) with a black background would speak volumes.

Or perhaps, "It's a MANDOLIN, you ignoramus!" would work. But then you might get pestered with people asking, "What's an ignoramus?"

Sigh ... There may be no winning the battle with ignorance, except by educating one person at a time.

[journeybear]

... in Germany, when you count with your fingers you start with your thumb ...

So the proper method to ask for a beer is with a thumbs-up gesture? Oh, I like that. I give that a thumbs-up!

Speaking of hand gestures, my understanding is that in England the equivalent of our single-finger salute is a two-finger version, back of the hand pointing out - the reverse of the "peace" sign. If you ever watch the Tonight Show, at the end of the night Jay Leno says good night while making this gesture, which he thinks is the peace sign. In effect, he is flipping off British viewers! It's astounding that no one has brought this to his attention. He's been doing this for years. Then again, he could be doing it on purpose ...

[billkilpatrick]

Reminds me of a story. I was traveling in Germany for the first time and I asked for a beer (ain bier) at the famed Hoffbrau House in Munich. But in Germany, when you count with your fingers you start with your thumb, so asking for "ain" beer in a loud room and raising your index finger comes across as you want two (LITER SIZE) beers. I don't remember too much after that point.

it's "ein bier" ... "zwei biere" would have been better (for lots of reasons) signifies there's more than one in the band ... take note of the "ausgang" signs.

- fritz*

[Paul Statman]

..my understanding is that in England the equivalent of our single-finger salute is a two-finger version, back of the hand pointing out - the reverse of the "peace" sign.

In WWII Winston Churchill used to salute this way as the "V" for Victory sign

[journeybear]

In WWII Winston Churchill used to salute this way as the "V" for Victory sign

I don't want to go off on a tangent (first time for everything ), but ..

According to wikipedia: The V sign is a hand gesture in which the first and second fingers are raised and parted, whilst the remaining fingers are clenched. With palm inwards, in the United Kingdom and some other English speaking countries, it is an obscene insulting gesture of defiance. During World War II, Winston Churchill popularised its use as a "Victory" sign (for V as in victory) initially with palm inwards and later in the war palm outwards. In the United States, with the palm outwards, and more recently, occasionally inward as well, it is also used to mean "Peace", a meaning that became popular during the peace movement of the 1960s.

Winston Churchill used a V sign in both versions to symbolize "V for Victory" during World War II. Early on in the war he used palm in (sometimes with a cigar between the fingers). Later in the war he used palm out. It is thought that the aristocratic Churchill made the change after it was explained to him what it signified to the other classes in Britain. He developed the idea from a BBC campaign.

[I could go on ... ]

The V sign, when the palm is facing toward the person giving the sign, has long been an insulting gesture in England, and later in the rest of the United Kingdom; its use is largely restricted to the UK, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand. It is frequently used to signify defiance (especially to authority), contempt or derision.

For a time in the UK, "a Harvey (Smith)" became a way of describing the insulting version of the V sign, much as "the word of Cambronne" is used in France, or "the Trudeau salute" is used to describe the one-fingered salute in Canada. This happened because, in 1971, show-jumper Harvey Smith was disqualified for making a televised V sign to the judges after winning the British Show Jumping Derby at Hickstead. (His win was reinstated two days later.) Harvey Smith pleaded that he was simply using a Victory sign, a defence also used by other figures in the public eye.

Sometimes foreigners visiting the countries mentioned above use the "two-fingered salute" without knowing it is offensive to the natives, for example when ordering two beers in a noisy pub, or in the case of the United States president George H. W. Bush, who while touring Australia in 1992, attempted to give a "peace sign" to a group of farmers in Canberra—who were protesting about U.S. farm subsidies—and instead gave the insulting V sign.

[Evidence that making faux pas is a Bush family tradition.]

On April 3, 2009, Scottish football players Barry Ferguson and Allan McGregor were banned for life by the Scottish Football Association after they were photographed making V-signs at team officials while on the substitutes bench.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So this stuff gets taken pretty seriously, even to this day. Personally, I would be careful where such things are concerned. Different cultures have distinct traditions. For instance, in Japan it is an insult to toast with water.

[Paul Statman]

..Churchill used a V sign in both versions to symbolize "V for Victory" during World War II. Early on in the war he used palm in (sometimes with a cigar between the fingers). Later in the war he used palm out. It is thought that the aristocratic Churchill made the change after it was explained to him what it signified to the other classes in Britain.

Thanks for clarifying that, journeybear. BTW: toasting with water in (most parts of) England is considered an insult, too!

[mandozilla]

OOHWEE! How about "This ain't no stinkin' B**jo fool!"

In Reuthenian, B**JO means "The Cattle are dying!" So I guess UN-B**JO might be Ruthenian for "The Cattle are Living?"...I dunno, I'm just sayin'.

If the plural of house is houses, why isn't the plural of mouse, mouses? The English language makes absolutley no sense at times.

[journeybear]

oops ...

[journeybear]

OOHWEE! How about "This ain't no stinkin' B**jo fool!"

In Ruthenian, B**JO means "The Cattle are dying!" So I guess UN-B**JO might be Ruthenian for "The Cattle are Living?"...I dunno, I'm just sayin'.

Works for me! Just be careful while traveling in Ruthenia ...

Hmmm ... I've long believed the banjo to be potentialy damaging, but I thought that was limited to people with long periods of close exposure (pickers, people at the wrong campfires at bluegrass festivals, etc). Now I see this menace is more serious than I thought!

I'm trying to see where you got your info, and so far have found this:

Paul Kenney and John Catterall (The King Brothers), have been performing together since 1984 when they entered and won a Bluegrass Music Festival band competition somewhere in the wilds of New Jersey. Although they are not brothers they are both Kings: Paul (guitar, bouzouki, vocals) is the former King of France while John (mandolin, tenor & 5-string banjo, guitar, vocals) is the current reigning monarch of Ruthenia.

The current reigning monarch of Ruthenia plays banjo? This is even more serious than I thought ...

If the plural of house is houses, why isn't the plural of mouse, mouses? The English language makes absolutely no sense at times.

Waitaminnit! I thought the plural of house is hice!?!

[Paul Statman]

I thought the plural of house is hice!?

There are indeed some very affected upper-class British twits who insist on pronouncing the word 'house' as 'hice'. Honestly!

[man dough nollij]

Sure.

Mouse-- Mice
House-- Hice
Louse-- Lice
Spouse-- Spice!

[journeybear]

... Spouse-- Spice!

As it should be, but particularly in Utah!

There are indeed some very affected upper-class British twits who insist on pronouncing the word 'house' as 'hice'. Honestly!

Well, then, there is an effective detective method for determining someone's class and/or lack thereof.
When someone says that it should set your Twit-O-Meter all a-twitter!

[Elliot Luber]

That goes back ot the other thread, "wo people separated by a common language."

[journeybear]

That goes back to the other thread, "two people separated by a common language."

That's us, all right. We do wander far afield sometimes.

Two threads separated by a common membership ...