Engleman vs. Adirondak

[F-2 Dave]

Was thinking about ordering one of the new Collings A models with the honey amber top and the tortise binding. One of the features of the MT is a Engleman Spruce top or for a couple hundred more, upgrade to a Sitka Spruce top. I know opinions vary among players and builders but, is there much difference in the two woods?

[man dough nollij]

Sounds odd. On Webers, the Sitka is standard, and there are upcharges to switch to Englemann or Cedar, if I'm not wrong.

Maybe Spruce can chime in on the relative values of these different woods. Can't imagine that sitka is more expensive to acquire than englemann. Nope.

[Bernie Daniel]

F-2 Dave: I know opinions vary among players and builders but, is there much difference in the two woods?

I would search on spruce -- there have been two (maybe three?) strings discussing more or less this exact topic within the last few months. One was very detail as to the differences in the properties of the woods.

[Rick Turner]

You've got to understand that you're dealing with averages here, and there is tremendous overlap among spruces when it comes to stiffness to weight, density, damping and its reciprocal "resonance", and all that. Typically red or Adirondack spruce has some of the highest stiffness to weight numbers you can every hope to see in spruce. However there is also some high altitude Engelmann which has similar numbers. Red spruce will tend to be harder and tougher than the softer and more easily dinged Engelmann.

But a lot of this is marketing spin. And then there is what the builder chooses to do with regard to bracing and graduating, and that can make all the difference.

Don't buy a name. Buy a sound.

[F-2 Dave]

Sorry, I misspoke. The MT, I was told, was Engleman, that is on the satin finish and the gloss top. The MT2 which is all gloss has the Red spruce top. I was just debating wether I should spend the extra for the Red Spruce.

[lefty mandoman]

I own both a Collings MT and a MT2, and they both have their own distinct sound. I guess it depends on what you're using it for and obviously what sounds best to you. I use my MT2 (with a Adirondack top) mostly for Bluegrass because the Ad. top is brighter sounding and tends to cut better with louder instruments, such as a banjo, dobro, or a fiddle. The MT (with a Engleman top) has a warmer, darker, woodier tone that works well for Folk, Celtic, etc. Not to say you can't use either for different genres, but that's just what sounds best to me. You can't go wrong with either top.... in fact i bought my MT first and then bought the MT2 to replace the MT. It turns out i liked them both so much i had to keep them both! I would recommend that you go and play both, if possible, to see what works best for you.

Good luck and enjoy the journey!

[Paul Hostetter]

Whatever Collings mandolin you get, bear in mind that what you get on Day One will sound a lot different a year later. You might even think it had changed species just passing time.

How much of the upcharge is for the spruce and how much is for the gloss finish?

[Rick Schmidlin]

My 2005 MF5 5 sound better this year then ever more open and vinatge.

[Chuck Naill]

Here is a paragraph from Mr Gilchrist.

Tone

Gilchrist mandolin tone
Gilchrist builds different styles of mandolins depending on the woods he uses. This is what he said himself
"at one extreme is Red Spruce and Rock Maple, at the other extreme is Engelmann Spruce or European Spruce and a soft Maple such as European Maple. Red Spruce and Rock Maple makes a bright clear sounding mandolin with a very strong attack, characteristics the bluegrass players like.
Engelmann and a Soft Maple have a mellow, bassier sound that the classical players prefer (Gilchrist C style). Gilchrist also changes the resonant frequency of the soundbox to make a warmer or a brighter sounding instrument. Reducing the resonant frequency either by increasing the volume or reducing the surface area of the soundholes will produce a warmer tonal quality.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5701/mandolin/mando7.htm

chuck naill

[Dale Ludewig]

IMHO, tone vs. resonant frequency of the body are two completely separate issues. It's been discussed many times. Changing sound hole size to change resonant body frequency has to be pretty huge. I think tonal quality will change faster, but not nearly as the effects of graduations.

[Spruce]

Don't buy a name. Buy a sound.

+1...

And spelling the name correctly makes future searches more fruitful...

[Chuck Naill]

And spelling the name correctly makes future searches more fruitful...

If we are going to be correct, its Red spruce, not Adirondack.

chuck naill/knoxville

[Trey Young]

(Picea rubens)

[sunburst]

If we are going to be correct, its Red spruce, not Adirondack.

chuck naill/knoxville

It's red spruce. No capital needed. (or is that capatile...or catipult...or...)

[D.E.Williams]

Hey, if it's from the Adirondacks, then it most certainly is Adirondack Spruce.


Or should we say, Adirondack Red Spruce? As compared to Maine Red Spruce, or Appalachian Red Spruce, or Mario Proulx Canadian Red Spruce....

[Paul Hostetter]

And spelling the name correctly makes future searches more fruitful...

+1.

If we are going to be correct, its Red [er, red] spruce, not Adirondack.

Common names are only semi-correct in the first place, I wouldn't obsess over it. Picea rubens (literally "red spruce," also known as yellow spruce, West Virginia spruce, eastern spruce, and he-balsam) is a species of spruce native to eastern North America. Specifically, its habitat ranges from eastern Quebec to Nova Scotia, and from New England south in the Adirondack Mountains and Appalachians to western North Carolina.

Unless you're considering Gifford Pinchot's 1898 tract on the "Adirondack Spruce" (which he clearly identifies as red spruce, AKA Picea rubens), it seems the term Adirondack spruce is used exclusively by the lutherie community, and by no one else. P. rubens is the spruce of the Adirondacks, so it seems that common name is as appropriate as a non-scientific name can be. Without exception it's applied to that one species in the trade.

And only Stan Jay ever spelled it Adirondak! What a rascal!

[Chuck Naill]

Hey, if it's from the Adirondacks, then it most certainly is Adirondack Spruce.

There is white, black, and red spruce in that range, which are you referring to?

Around here we get our Red spruce from the Smoky Mountains and West Virginia in the Appalachian range.

Spruce, I capitalize proper names/nouns but not Latin designations as a tradition.

chuck

[Paul Hostetter]

Picea glauca in the Adirondacks? Did you plant some there? It's pretty rare, being that's about the southernmost it range might extend. Picea mariana lives there, but who really harvests it? Not a contender either. P. rubens is (or was, anyway) the dominant spruce of the Adirondacks.

[Chuck Naill]

Picea glauca in the Adirondacks? Did you plant some there? Picea mariana lives there, but who really harvests it? Not a contender. P. rubens is (or was, anyway) the dominant spruce of the Adirondacks.

Is this new information for you?

chuck naill/Tennessee

[D.E.Williams]

There is white, black, and red spruce in that range, which are you referring to?

All of it !



I just realized I have a family camp up there somewhere (Uncle's). I may have to take a trip up and see if there's a big ol' tree that needs to be cut down.

[F-2 Dave]

I'm hoping to trade in a banjo for the better part of a mandolin. The closest dealer is Morgan Music, so my Adirondack/Englemann/Red Spruce/Picea Glauca will have to come from Lebanon. (maybe Cedar?)

Do you guys always go at it like this?

[buddyellis]

Is this new information for you?

chuck naill/Tennessee

I would very much doubt it. Paul has likely 'forgotten' more about the various spruces than most of us ever learned.

[Chuck Naill]

I would very much doubt it. Paul has likely 'forgotten' more about the various spruces than most of us ever learned.

First off, I meant no disrespect to the gentleman, but his reply was of a sarcastic nature IMHO, asking if I had planted a species of spruce. I have read and heard from other experts that the Adirondacks do indeed have more than one species of spruce. Therefore, its odd to hear a luthier defend the use of a mountain range to refer to a species of spruce.

We have Red spruce experts in Tennessee, Buddy. The late Ted Davis and his partner John Arnold resurrected the access of Red spruce for many builders including Collins and Martin over the past 20 years from their sourcing of trees from West Virginia and the Great Smoky Mountains through one in a life time opportunities. There two men and particularly John were/are a very close and dear friend who has been my teacher and luthier since the mid 80's. Therefore, when someone refers to Red spuce according to the mountain range it seems odd. In other words, we do not refer to the spruce from The Smokys as Smoky Mountain spruce, but Smoky Mountain Red spruce or West Virginia Red spruce or Cumberland Plateau Hard Rock Maple.

chuck naill

[Paul Hostetter]

its odd to hear a luthier defend the use of a mountain range to refer to a species of spruce.

Chuck, you are hanging onto a very dim point for dear life. Why? Google "Adirondack spruce" and you will get thousands of hits and virtually every single one refers to guitars or mandolins. And every single one of those also refers to exactly one species of spruce, Picea rubens, never in reference to other species of spruce.

"Adirondack spruce" is a common name, and it's commonly used by many thousands of people (far more, I'm sure, than ever used the term he-balsam) in a very specific way. Martin, for example, has always called red spruce Adirondack spruce. There's no "correct" common name, there are only correct scientific names. (In which, by the way, the genus is capitalized and the species is lower case.) Why are you right and everyone else is wrong?

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck, you are hanging onto a very dim point for dear life. Why? Google "Adirondack spruce" and you will get thousands of hits and virtually every single one refers to guitars or mandolins. And every single one of those also refers to exactly one species of spruce, Picea rubens, never in reference to other species of spruce.

"Adirondack spruce" is a common name, and it's commonly used by many thousands of people (far more, I'm sure, than ever used the term he-balsam) in a very specific way. Martin, for example, has always called red spruce Adirondack spruce. There's no "correct" common name, there are only correct scientific names. (In which, by the way, the genus is capitalized and the species is lower case.) Why are you right and everyone else is wrong?

Paul,

As a thinking man, I know the difference between being popular and being correct. I do not use Google as a proof source.There is no such thing as Adirondack spruce unless you are referring to the various species that grow in that region. If you look up picea rubens you will find that it is a reference to Red/red spruce. I used capitals as a matter of habit because it is a specific genre of spruce and as such a proper noun.

Red spruce grows here in the Southern Appalachians (not a part of the Adirondack range) and else where at about 4500 feet as seen in this photo of me in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park standing in groves of red/Red spruce.





The next photo is of the late Ted Davis measuring a 450 plus year old red/Red spruce brought down in 1995 by Hurrcaine Opal and miraculously obtained from Blaylock Construction by John Arnold.



Adirondack spruce is a marketing term, but I would not say that it is common in the since that academics would recognize it as a suitable synonym or reference for the common Latin term picea rubens

If you and others are obliged to use the term Adirondack I will know what you mean, but in the context of this thread, I was having some fun with Spruce. I was not intending to start a term war.

chuck naill/knoxville, tennessee