Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Question about tuner washers

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Question about tuner washers

    This may sound dumb, but bear in mind that I have never worked on any other mandolin than the one I have. I have a 2003 Washburn Jethro burns that I bought new, and in the last few weeks I have been doing some work on it, with the help of some good advice from the forum. About two weeks ago I was doing some final touch up work on a saddle that I had inlaid a piece of bone in, during that process I had one of the tuner buttons, some kind of plastic pearl looking material, crumble off. So, I happened to have some bone lying around and I decided to make a bone tuner button. This was pretty much of a job with nothing but hand tools, but it came out so well that I decided to make a whole set--which is a subject for another post. In the process of making the buttons I caused myself another problem.

    First, I do not know what brand of tuners this mandolin has. I checked the Washburn site, and did not find what I was looking for. I emailed Washburn, and the message I got back was "call to order the tuners." So, I assume they are some brand common to the pacrim instruments. Anyway, on the shaft that the button screws to there is what I call a "top hat spacer" that goes between the button and the tuner plate(I hope I am using the correct nomenclature). Between the part of the spacer that goes next to the body is a tiny nylon/plastic washer. Frankly these things are so thin and clear that I did not realize they were there until I happened to have one come off with the top hat spacer.

    Once I knew they were there I was very careful to try not to lose any of them. Not careful enough as at the very last I lost one of them. I called Washburn to see if I could get some of these things, the answer I got was "buy a set of tuners, no small parts available". I certainly am not going to buy a set of tuners when mine are working ok, and even if I did I would buy upgrade to a better set.

    I did some looking around and found some nylon washers at Ace Hardware that are almost perfect, except for the thickness. so I sanded one down-removing my fingerprint from a couple fingers in the process by the way- polished it, lubed it up, and tried it, and it seems to work alright- maybe a tiny bit stiffer. I intend to take one of the real ones off and measure it and get the exact thickness since I just eyeballed the one I sanded down, so I do not really think I need to try to get the exact replacement. Unless the original washers are some kind of super-duper unobtainable material. However, my question is this...

    Is this small washer, which I suspect is to make the tuner operate smoother by reducing friction, something that is common to mandolin tuners? Or is it something used on the less expensive tuners to make up for the bearing surfaces not being smoothly polished? If this is the case, then are the better tuners polished better, thus making the washer unnecessary? I found an excellent post by Paul on tuner maintenance, and I am going to do this to mine in a few days since I have a string change coming up and once I find some of the TriFlow lube that he recommends, and maybe some kind of polishing compound. But I am curious about this washer and I am also interested in hearing what others may have used as a replacement.

    Thanks to all who respond,
    Terry
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  2. #2
    Registered User Rolfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    mid-coast Maine
    Posts
    277

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Hi Terry,
    I don't think the tuners are Grovers as the Grovers have a white washer, but the principle is the same. I believe it serves as a compression device allowing you to set the turning tension of the tuner. The tighter you turn the screw holding the button on, the more friction you create for turning the tuner. I think it is a nice feature allowing you to set the turning tension of your tuners, and the inexpensive tuners do not have this (nor do some expensive ones). So, it is not necessarily a feature of cheap tuners. Also the thickness of the washer is not critical; you may be fine where you have it. The material will make a difference, and if you find material that what you want in thickness and composition, you could make yourself a bundle of these washers using a leather punch.
    Rolfe Gerhardt

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Thanks Rolfe. I never thought about what you mentioned. So, I guess then that one tightens the button to the preferred tension, which may not be completely tight, what we used to call "snug but free", and by using medium(?) loc-tite the screws should not back out? I did try, before I went to the hardware store, to make a washer from some of the plastic material that is used in some packaging. The stuff that I cuss each time I try to open something sealed in that stuff. I used my leather punch just like you mentioned, and it seemed to work reasonably well but I wasn't sure if it would hold up. Plus I need a new leather punch, mine's a bit dull and the anvil needs to be smoothed out. Thanks again.
    Terry
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  4. #4
    Mandolin User Andy Miller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    520

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Terry - although it seems like you're enjoying "rolling your own," I thought I'd mention another possible source for such parts and materials is McMaster-Carr.

    They have, for example, washers made of delrin, nylon, vinyl, polyurethane, etc. I think they used to carry unobtanium washers, but those are hard to get these days. . .


  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Thanks "alltunator". I'll check out the site. If you have plenty of time, check out the post I just made, it's long so be warned, and you'll see how rolling my own has eaten up the last few weeks. I do like coming up with solutions myself, since almost everything that I seem to need is not available around here. Thanks again for the site.
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  6. #6
    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Boulder, Colorado
    Posts
    543

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    As a former Washburn owner, I would like to chime in on the quality of their tuning machines. Junk. Not only are they junk, but they are a non-standard post size, so when you decide that you're fed up and want to replace them with something quality, you can't, unless you want to fill in and re-drill the post holes. You just have to bite the bullet and order new set of junk machines from Washburn. $36 dollars A PLATE when I ordered them a few years ago. I spent $72 plus tax and shipping to get the same junk tuners with plastic cracking buttons that I had before, when you can get a quality set for about $20 cheaper. I went ahead and ordered extra buttons as well (which are also not a standard size and must be purchased through Washburn). Good luck, Terry, hopefully you're crafty enough to take care of your issues without having to deal with Washburn.
    2016 Ellis F5
    2007 Gibson Sam Bush
    1924 Gibson A Jr.
    1913 R. Calace Brevettato 900
    Espresso
    Youtube

  7. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Stewmac sells oversized bushings.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Thanks Jordan, that's good to know. I was wondering about whether or not I could easily replace those tuners with something better. I was looking at the stewmac catalog, and the Grover and Golden Age tuners show a post size of .236. Were the posts on your instrument smaller or larger than this? I am going to check mine and see what they are. I am really curious now. I sure don't want to buy from Washburn.
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  9. #9
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    17,103

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    If any interest , I have some leftover bushings from Schaller and the StewMac 'golden age' tuners

    as neither installation required them, Nickel plated finish. both are dimensioned on drawings on the StewMac site.

    fwiw .236" is a reasonable size post to go in a .250" hole if you want it to rotate.
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Thanks, I might be interested in the bushings. I just checked my post sizes and the spacing against the stew mac catalog specs for the Golden Age and Grover tuners. Unless my digital caliper is wrong my posts are the same size and spacing, so now I am more confused. It certainly appears that either of the two brands would fit, screw holes might be different but I could handle that. I would sure like some better tuners, I'll have to do some searching and see if anyone else has changed tuners out on my model. Thanks for all the help.
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  11. #11

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    tatwell,you'll have those original machines going soon,and wear them out,if I read you right. Repair&maintenance;they all need and deserve that. If they are very low quality you'll get tired of trying to make them work and upgrade.

    When I work with tiny pieces like you are,I keep an empty ice-cube tray on the bench to keep them in/separate them. I have a couple of stacks of them and metal cabinets of small drawers.

    I'm not sure what TriFlow is exactly;any lube is better than none. I like to use white lithium grease or something that won't soak into the wood(migrate),like regular 3-in-1 oil. I'm really careful with any kind of lube getting on the finish.

    Back in the day...early '90s,even some top-o'-the-line Gibsons(Montana) had less-than-optimal tuners with pot-metal base-plates. Real MOP buttons though! They will crack too,especially if you are too rambunctious with a winder.

    I like to replace "pearloid",MOTS buttons with creamy "ivoroid" or anything else. Crunch the pearloid buttons with pliers,clean up the shaft,glue on your choice of buttons. Lots to choose from these days,or make your own.

    I mostly use handtools and a Dremel (very slowly).

    The advent of the current Waverlies was long overdue. Cry once ,when you buy them;but,only then. Thank you,Don MacRostie,and all the R&D folks who make mandolin jewelry. Using Waverlies machines is like having Campagnolo parts on your bicycle.

    Hope everything works out for you,tatwell. Keep on rollin'!

  12. #12
    Different Text eadg145's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    494

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Speaking of bicycles, you can get your Tri-Flow at any bike shop. It's a very popular lubricant for chains and especially cables. Try your Local Bike Shop (LBS) first, as they'll likely have it. If not, you can get it mail-order here:

    http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=4213

    cheers,

    David
    Think globally, bike locally.

  13. #13
    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Boulder, Colorado
    Posts
    543

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Hey Terry,

    I had an MS3W? (F-style w/ pickguard), purchased used in '02 but I'm not sure about the actual year of the mandolin. Maybe the Jethro's are different, but I ordered Grovers (without researching) for my mando and had my old machines off before I realized that the new ones would absolutely not fit and I had to send them back. I had a luthier friend of mine measure my post spacing and he said it was not standard, then I contacted Washburn and found out about their racket. If your caliper says they'll fit, then maybe the newer Jethro's have a standard, or closer to standard, spacing. Good luck.
    2016 Ellis F5
    2007 Gibson Sam Bush
    1924 Gibson A Jr.
    1913 R. Calace Brevettato 900
    Espresso
    Youtube

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Thanks guys, for all the great info. As near as I can tell by measuring my current tuners, the post diameter and spacing looks like a match for the Grovers and Golden age tuners. I emailed stew mac and they say that as long as I am measuring correctly the tuners will work. They also say that if they do not work I can send them back, so all I'll be out is some shipping. I am going to see how my current tuners respond to the maintenance process, then if they do not work I am going to order a new set. Any preferences as to Grovers or the Golden Age ones? Any feedback will be appreciated.

    Jordan, thanks again for the input. I hope that since my M6SW is a 2003 model that it is made so standard tuners will work. I certainly would not buy another Washburn, too many other better choices out there. I am currently saving to buy a good mandolin, most likely a Collings Mt, so I am not eager to spend any great amounts of money on what will be my beater.

    Thanks again guys for all the help. If I order the tuners I'll post back as to whether or not they fit, just in case someone else has the same question.
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  15. #15
    Registered User Jim DeSalvio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Mahomet, Illinois
    Posts
    494

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Terry,

    I sent you a private message. I might have a set of tuners for you.

    Read the message and let me know.
    Jim D

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Columbia, southh carolina
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Jim, I sent you a Pm about the tuners, thanks so much for the kind offer. I may have mine working now. I took them off and went through the tuner maintenance items, found burrs on the gears, and one good size brass chip in one of the peghead holes, that appeared to have been getting hung up in the post, I guess when I would turn the mandolin over, hard to explain. Anyway, I cleaned the tuners, polished with some compound, spun them a lot with my drill, lubed up and I am amazed at the difference. I had grabs and glitches before, but now they work quite smoothly. For how long is anyone's guess, but for now I am good to go. Thanks for all the tips and advice, I do appreciate it.

    Oh, by the way, I had a set of TI strings that I had bought some time back, so I put them on while I had everything down. Once they settle in I'll know whether I like them or no. I will say this, regardless of how they may sound, they have to be the easiest strings for me to change that I have ever tried.

    Thanks again,
    Terry
    Terry Atwell

    2003 Washburn M6SW
    2009 LM600

  17. #17
    Registered User midyearguru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Upper Sacramento Valley, Ca.
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    I've had an experience (which ultimately required replacing the cheapo Korean made Schaller knockoffs) with the "toiletoid" buttons crumbling in my hands long before getting anywhere near standard pitch. Mind you, these were fitted to a customer's "professional grade" PacRim beauty. Actually, the basic construction wasn't too shabby.....but the hardware....OMG!!!! Since retaining originality was not an issue, I was able to replace them with Grover 308's with very little custom fitting. Oh, and the advertised "Loar type" bridge also found its way into the garbage can. Now for a few extra dollars, this mando finally acts like the PRO it was advertised to be.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: Question about tuner washers

    Quote Originally Posted by jramsey View Post
    As a former Washburn owner, I would like to chime in on the quality of their tuning machines. Junk. Not only are they junk, but they are a non-standard post size, so when you decide that you're fed up and want to replace them with something quality, you can't, unless you want to fill in and re-drill the post holes. You just have to bite the bullet and order new set of junk machines from Washburn. $36 dollars A PLATE when I ordered them a few years ago. I spent $72 plus tax and shipping to get the same junk tuners with plastic cracking buttons that I had before, when you can get a quality set for about $20 cheaper. I went ahead and ordered extra buttons as well (which are also not a standard size and must be purchased through Washburn). Good luck, Terry, hopefully you're crafty enough to take care of your issues without having to deal with Washburn.
    I have replaced tuners in old Gibsons with non-standard hole spacing and i cut the new tuner and drill to match the mandolin holes if i half to. Works fine and can upgrade to any tuner. Cut the last set of Grovers in 4 pieces then use a small washer on the mounting screw to cover the cut and hold in the tuner.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •