My head is spinning! Home recording for bluegrass/acoustic music?

[Jonas]

Hi folks!

I'm heading into a new world, I'm about to buy a recording system for my Macbook. I'll also be adding one mic to the stable (I have one mic at present, a Rode NT3).

After reading a little about this, my head is spinning! There's just so much out there! Also, it's rare to read about people using their equipment for bluegrass and folk music, it's mostly pop, rock or electronic music. I thought I might find some good advice here!

What I've been pondering so far is the Apogee Duet (good sound quality it's said), but I think I'll be limited with only two input channels. Other brands I've been thinking about is Presonus, Motu and Terratec. Do you guys have any products that you can recommend? I don't want to put too much money into this, since it' my first buy and I'm not sure how and how much I will use it.

Does it matter if I buy a system that uses USB or Firewire? I'm thinking this kind of music does not drag down the CPU too much, since it's not a bunch of software synthesizers and effects so USB might be just fine, but what do I know?

For mics, any advice that will complement my Rode NT3? I've been thinking about a Rode NT1-a or a NT2-a. What do you think is a good mic for vocals when it comes to this kind of music? Is a ribbon mic the way to go perhaps?

Please, help!

[Fretbear]

Firewire is superior to USB for audio capture, and will have near zero latency which cannot be said of all USB units. The Presonus Inspire is an excellent inexpensive firewire breakout box and gives you two 48 volt phantom powered XLR or 1/4" microphone inputs. Presonus also offers the Firebox for about $100 more that adds MIDI capacity. They both come with Cubase LE software, and also work with Audacity and Garageband. Both units can also be daisy-chained to add lots more inputs without adding any latency.

[Rich Breen]

...
Does it matter if I buy a system that uses USB or Firewire?...

For mics, any advice that will complement my Rode NT3? I've been thinking about a Rode NT1-a or a NT2-a. What do you think is a good mic for vocals when it comes to this kind of music? Is a ribbon mic the way to go perhaps?

Please, help!

Just a few thoughts...

As Fretbear said - do *not* go USB - Firewire is a much better interface for audio streaming.

While I can't really comment on that level of mics, I really think it's a good idea to have two of the same model mic - that way you can use them as a stereo pair which is very handy - especially if you want to document a live event, or just do a quick recording of a small group, so I think if you like the NT3, I'd get another before I started buying other mics. Ribbon mics can be a nice choice for an alternate color, but will always sound like a ribbon - in the right hands a condenser can be shaped to sound like a lot of different things if need be.

As far as specific interfaces, the RME stuff is excellent (I have a Fireface 400 for a secondary utility interface and it has some very nice features), though may be above your price range for the number of inputs you want. I also think that MOTU delivers a very inexpensive and stable product - you just need to decide how many mic inputs, how many line inputs, and how many outputs you need, then shop from there.

hope that's helpful,
rich

[Don Grieser]

Firewire is the way to go. Do some research on the support messageboards/forums of the company's products you're looking at. Lots of unhappy people on the Presonus boards.

[foldedpath]

What I've been pondering so far is the Apogee Duet (good sound quality it's said), but I think I'll be limited with only two input channels. Other brands I've been thinking about is Presonus, Motu and Terratec. Do you guys have any products that you can recommend? I don't want to put too much money into this, since it' my first buy and I'm not sure how and how much I will use it.

The Duet is a good interface if you're sure you'll only need two input channels in the near future. Two channels might be enough, depending on where you want to go with recording. You can do a stereo recording of a solo instrument, or vocals plus mono guitar or mandolin, and you can overdub additional tracks.

Where it starts to be limiting is if you're recording, say, an instrumental duet and you want a stereo mic setup on both instruments. Or if you want to set up a room mic or two for ambient sound (assuming good room acoustics). Or if you record a full band.

A more flexible approach would be to get an interface with 4 to 8 A/D inputs and a 2-channel mic preamp, or just 4-8 inputs and then add a 2-channel external mic preamp to start with. Then you can build out from there, with more mic preamp channels as needed. I'm generally more in favor of keeping your A/D-D/A interface separate from the mic preamps for that reason; it's easier to upgrade both separately. However, I don't think you'll find a good 4 to 8 channel A/D-D/A interface plus a separate 2-channel mic preamp for the same money as the Duet. There's the rub. Separate components are more expensive. The Duet would be fine if you've mapped out where you want to go with recording in the next year or two, and 2 channels will do the job.

For what it's worth, I'm using an RME Fireface 400 interface for my laptop recording rig. It has two internal mic preamps, with an additional 8 input channels and 8 output channels (the internal mic pre's can be disabled if you use all 8 external inputs). This lets me start with the two built-in mic preamps, then add better quality external preamps as I can afford them. I use the two internal mic pre's in the Fireface for ambient/room mics. I use two additional external preamps for instruments and vocals -- a 2-channel Great River MP-2NV mic preamp, and a 2-channel AEA TRP preamp for ribbon and tube mics. I've bought those slowly over time, adding to the Fireface as I can afford it with more preamp channels. Eventually I'll have 8 external preamp channels and I'll bypass the internal ones. Incidentally, the best thing about RME isn't so much the converter quality or internal mic pre quality (they're both "mid range" as these things go), but the drivers are rock solid. That's important.

But again, this may all be overkill if you don't need more than 2 channels. You'll have to be the one that decides if that's enough. We've gotten to the point with digital home recording that it's incredibly cheap --- close to "free" considering the cost of CPU's and hard drives now -- to add more tracks inside the computer. But high quality analog hardware to amplify a fragile microphone signal, before it hits the A/D converter, is still very expensive. That probably won't change in the near future.

One more thing, at the risk of being too long-winded here... my Fireface 400 + preamps remote rig is fairly compact. It all goes in a 3-space rack that sits underneath the laptop. But it's still a lot bulkier and uses more cables than something like the Duet. That's a tiny little thing.... very portable. For some uses, that might be preferable to throwing gear in a rack like I'm doing, even a small rack.

Does it matter if I buy a system that uses USB or Firewire? I'm thinking this kind of music does not drag down the CPU too much, since it's not a bunch of software synthesizers and effects so USB might be just fine, but what do I know?

Firewire is better (at the moment) than USB if you're running more than two input channels, because the overhead can be off-loaded on a chip. Assuming the motherboard actually does that... not all do. I think the general consensus right now is that USB is okay for a 2-channel interface, but try for Fireface if you're running 4 to 8 channels, especially if you're using the higher overhead of 88.2k or 96k resolution (another whole can of worms there).

Another wrinkle here -- I've heard Apple is now dropping Fireface from the Macbook, and it will only be on the Macbook Pro. That's basically a forced upgrade for Mac owners that do pro or "prosumer" recording, unless you're using one of the older, Firewire-supporting Macbooks. Windows laptop users should try to find one that uses the Texas Instrument Firewire chip.

For mics, any advice that will complement my Rode NT3? I've been thinking about a Rode NT1-a or a NT2-a. What do you think is a good mic for vocals when it comes to this kind of music? Is a ribbon mic the way to go perhaps?

The NT3 is a decent starter mic for recording instruments. Vocal mics are hard to recommend, because everyone's voice is different. I can recommend what I think is a great vocal mic (Peluso 2247LE) but it's not cheap and it might not work well with your voice, or whoever you want to record. With vocal mics in particular, I think there's something to be said for not spending too much money on one when you first start out with recording, because you may need to go through several to find an ideal match. It's easier to recommend instrument mics like small condensers, because they're more in the realm of clean, un-colored sound. Often you'll want more "color" for a vocal mic.

Regarding ribbons.... I know there are ribbon mic fans here, but I wouldn't recommend starting with one. Aim for a pair of good quality small condenser mics, and add a ribbon later when you're more comfortable with the recording process. Another thing.... passive ribbon mics often need a lot of clean gain. I think the Apogee Duet does 75db gain, but "preamps-on-a-chip" like this aren't always clean when they're pushed hard. So that's another consideration (are you getting confused yet?!). If you do get deep into ribbon mics at some point, you may want a mic preamp that works really well with ribbons like the AEA TRP, or a number of other good high-gain preamps out there.

[Jonas]

Wow! Great tips here! Thanks

I'm pretty convinced I'll go the Firewire route. I'm also pretty convinced that two input channels is too few. I think this will be seriously limiting in the longer run, so the Apogee duet is out.

As far as the RME Fireface 400 goes, I've heard this is an excellent unit. Maybe a little pricy for me, but perhaps I can find one used... I forgot to mention that my Macbook has the Agere FW-chip, and not the Texas Instruments chip. Does anyone know if the RME units work well with the Agere chip?

Two friends have Presonus firewire systems, and they are happy with them, that's why I've been thinking about one of those. I just tried one of them and it worked with my Mac (the Agere chip didn't seem to be a problem).

However, a solid unit that works well is very important for me! I hate fooling around with electronics that doesn't work!

As far as mics go then, do you think a stereo matched pair of Röde NT1-a would be a good way to start? Or maybe even Studio Projects B1, even cheaper?

[bagpipe]

Regarding matched stereo mics, I just ordered a pair of these Naiant X-Q condensers. They seem to be very highly regarded on the homerecording.com and at acousticguitarforum.com. They're also much cheaper than a lot of the competition. I'm waiting for them to arrive. I'll post with a report when they get here.


http://www.naiant.com/studiostore/microphones.html

[Avi Ziv]

Jonas,

I'm in a similar situation as you - shopping for a small mac-based system. I may end up with a Duet myself. It's high on my list. All of the experienced people I've talked to absolutely raved about it for audio quality and integration with the mac. It has only two channels though.

I did buy a Presonus Firebox and ended up returning it. I felt that it had a sever lack of mic gain, at least for my Sure KSM27 mic. This notion was later confirmed by many forum postings from others, as well as at least one dealer who sells them. It may be ok if you are recording loud instruments (drums, guitar amps etc) but for my mandolin it was not good enough. The mic gain spec is 45dB + another 12 dB via software. The Duet mic gain is spec'd at ~75dB if I'm not mistaken and according to Apogee should be able to be used even with ribbon mics

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are many many problems of audio devices interfacing with various firewire chip sets. I think someone above here alluded to this already. The safest thing is to contact the audio device manufacturer and get confirmation that your particular configuration will work. Apple changed firewire chip sets on the latest round of macbook pro's. I did contact Apogee and got their thumbs up.

It's also a good idea to buy equipment from a dealer who will take returns. You never know what problems you can come up against. Just search the audio internet forums and see the plethora of reported issues and frustrations.

Good luck. I'm on the same path here

Avi

[Stephen Lind]

just get a Zoom H2 with a large card, set it on hi rez and stick it in the middle of the room with both front and back mics on mikes on

[flatt]

Just looking at the Duet, and - now I'm no expert, but that seems a bit limiting. I record on PC, so my software info won't apply; I use a Rode NT-1 into a Soundcraft Compact 4 mixer which has 2 x XLR inputs as well 1/4" jacks + phonos, EQ, Phantom power etc. into the M-Audio soundcard. I also have an Audio-Techniques shotgun mic which is nice for guitar. I've just bought an AT3050 condensor but haven't had a chance to use it much.

I record using Adobe Audition, which is great but PC only. Apple Logic is highly respected in the profession. (I also use Propellorhead Reason, which is fantastic, but probably outside your needs)

Enjoy!

(http://uk.youtube.com/user/MandolinJackFlatt)

[mario515]

Hey Jack,, nice vids

[flatt]

Thanks Mario. A good advert for the Rode tho'? LOL!

[jfbrown42]

Another vote for the Zoom H2 here.

[Jonas]

I'm really interested in the RME Fireface 400. I'll go to a dealer tomorrow and see if I can try one with my Macbook. If it's working with the Firewire chipset in my computer, I'll probably go for it (but used). If it doesn't work, I'm still unsure. Perhaps the Duet, but I just can't get over it just having two inputs...

The H2 is a great recorder! I have tried it, and I might get one some day. But I don't think it'll do what I'm after right now, which is a more high quality recording system.

[Coffeecup]

The Zoom H2 is great but it doesn't give the flexibility to balance individual instruments and voices as would be needed at a professional level I think.

[mando.player]

MOTU offers quite a few interfaces that might suit your needs. For what its worth, I have a PreSonus Inspire (4 in / 4 out) that I have been happy with. That being said, I do use a separate preamp into it most of the time.

So far you've talked about hardware, what about recording software? Wha are you looking at?

[Jonas]

Well, it seems the local music stores doesn't have the RME Fireface 400 in stock. So I won't be able to test it with my FW chipset. Bummer! Reading on the RME message board, there seems to be a lot of troubles with the Agere FW chipset however, so I'm not so optimistic it will work anyway.

I have been considering MOTU as well! They have a system called 8pre which I think might suit me quite well, as I don't think I'll be needing many outputs, it's the inputs I'm after I think. There is also a MOTU HD896 for sale used here in Sweden. One of the guys in the local stores here said MOTU was working fine with the Agere chip.

Mando.player, have you experienced the lack of gain when recording acoustic instruments with the Presonus that other people on this thread has talked about?


As for recording software, I think I'm gonna start with Garageband. If I find out I need more, I'll move on to Logic. That's my plan.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Jonas,
my experience so far is limited to recording with a Tascam hard disc recorder, so I won´t know about the interface stuff and such. I would still recomend a good hard disc recorder. They are easy to carry around and the setup - even in a live setting - is easy. You can record whatever comes handy. And these hard disc devices are just wonderfully easyly managable when you record with one or two mics.

As to the mics. I have started out to record (my band) with one mic and a Rode NT 1 it was. It did the job extremely well. I have now a Rode NT 2 a which has a very linear approach to the instrument/voice. It records the instruments excedingly well, but with a voice you might want a little more "warmth". I have played over an AudioTechnica 4033 a and they were excellent. I would suspect they will record as well. These mics might be in the price range that you are looking for. All of these pieces of equipment were not made for acoustic musicians. But they fit us hand in glove. That´s what I like about them. When they are designed well, they work for acoustic music. For vocals I´d allways try out the mics first, to see if they fit the singer.

Now the stereo setup is something that is more or less not a matter of equipment (a matched pair of NT 1´s would work fine), but more of the way to set the equipment up. There are numerous ways to do that and I´m sure you´ve read about it (the way that was come up by the dutch radio folks, the y-position and all of the stuff that I can´t even remember the name of), but you have to know what you´re doing. If you set your equipment up wrong, you´ll get what´s called Phasenauslöschung in German. Certain wavelength will miracouosly disappear in the recording and the sound gets thin. So watch out.

Ribbon transducers are a good way to record vocals though they are very delicate. The so called Nahbesprechungseffekt (the voice gets more volume [not loudness, mind you] the nearer it comes to the mic) is great for vocals. But if you overdo it, meaning when some rock-star-aprentice booms in the mic, he might destroy the ribbon. The old bluegrass live shows in the 50ies and 60ies apparently had ribbon transducers, because they picked the natural characteristics of the sound up so well.

I´d be thinking of a nice preamp to spiff up the microphone. A buddy of mine swears by tube preamps even though they will cost you quite a bit. I have a Behringer Shark DSP 110, which is basically a pre amp with phantom power, a noise gate, a noise clip, compressor and an equalizer serving as feedback destroyer. This little multi gadget gets the job done in a live setting and it helps to record well.

[Jonas]

Well, I today found out that a friend of mine has a RME Fireface 400! So I'll get over to his place to try it out and see if it works with my mac. But he was crazy busy at the moment, so it'll probably be two weeks before that happens.

Thanks for the mic suggestions. I think I will add another Rode NT3 (or its plastic cousin, M3) to get a good pair for instruments, and also a mic for vocals, probably something cheap to start with.

[Stephen Lind]

the Studio Projects C1 is an excellent inexpensive vocal mike
i have a pair of Rode NT2s that work quite well as a stereo pair on instruments

but still
the question you have to ask yourself is
do i want to be a recording engineer
or a musician?

why i say H2 at hi rez
i've gotten some amazingly good recordings with mine
and it's so fast and easy

[steve V. johnson]

I've worked with a number of recordings that were done on MOTU interfaces. They seem to be good and I've recommended the 8pre and the ... oh... forgot the name... the little tiny one... the most recent version of it is the Mk III ... sorry...

I like having pairs of microphones, it can allow you to do stereo room micing for an ensemble with pretty predictable results, and then you have the two mics for two players or a vocal and an instrument.

But if you're after different sounds or 'colors' or different applications that may not apply...

stv

[Jonas]

Ok, bringing this thread back since I've made some purchases now.

- First off I went with the RME Fireface 400. I bought one used (but only 3 months old) for a fairly good price.
- Also I have bought another Röde NT3 (also used, for a very good price).
- I have now installed Logic on my MacBook, but have not learned to use it yet.
- I also bought a used preamp (a Alto MicTube 2), very low quality I'm sure but I wanted more XLR-inputs and it was very cheap.
- For monitors I went for something unorthodox (and pretty cheap) to start with, namely the Audioengine 2 from D'feldt. These are advanced computer speakers rather than monitors, but they have a good sound so I'm gonna try them out. If they don't work too good, I'll have a great sound for the iPod!


This is all very exciting! I hope I can start recording some songs soon, because I realize a good production has as much or more to to with the head and ears of the engineer than the technical gear.

Looking at some more mics of course, but will wait a bit for this. Thanks for all the help so far!

[Don Grieser]

If Logic turns out to be a little too complicated, give Reaper a try. I'm running it on my MacBook and it's easier for me to understand than Logic Express, especially when I need to do any editing/mixing. Reaper never gets in the way when recording either--just arm the tracks, get levels, and hit record. It's a small efficient program with tons of features I never use and the plugins are great. You can download a full functioning copy to try out (it never expires) and a non commercial license is only $50.

[Chunky But Funky]

I've worked with a number of recordings that were done on MOTU interfaces. They seem to be good and I've recommended the 8pre and the ... oh... forgot the name... the little tiny one... the most recent version of it is the Mk III ... sorry...

stv

If anyone else is looking:

MOTU Ultralite MkIII

MOTU 828 MkIII

FWIW, my son has an 8Pre with a Mac Mini and it has really worked out well. I use a MOTU 2408 MkIII along with an RME ADI 8DS through ADAT (with PC though). Love it.

Doug

[Jonas]

If Logic turns out to be a little too complicated, give Reaper a try. I'm running it on my MacBook and it's easier for me to understand than Logic Express, especially when I need to do any editing/mixing. Reaper never gets in the way when recording either--just arm the tracks, get levels, and hit record. It's a small efficient program with tons of features I never use and the plugins are great. You can download a full functioning copy to try out (it never expires) and a non commercial license is only $50.

Cool Don, I do think I will give Reaper a try. Tanks for the tip! I'm all for simple(r). Logic Pro seems to be such a heavy program too, almost too heavy for my computer (I havent bought it yet, trying out a friends copy).

This is probably a stupid question, but I'll ask it anyway: will there be any difference in sound quality between the different audio programs available (i.e. Reaper and Logic)? I would think not, since all the actual audio recoding is done by the external hardware (the Fireface 400 in my case)?