Are the Loar F5's the Gold Standard?

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-19-2009, 3:30pm

I have played A models mandolins for several years and now have the opportunity to play an F model. I am curious if the Loar era F models are the gold standard for Blue Grass.

Any opinions how the Loars sounded new vs today?

Are modern builders being true to the Loar era or are they after another sound? The reason I ask is because BG was not in existance when the Loars were made.

Which builders are building the closest copies if the Loar era F5's?

Thank you in advance!!

chuck naill /knoxville

**mrmando** · Jan-19-2009, 4:01pm

Hi Chuck -- you appear to have lined up four dead horses here, so look out for flying body parts. I recommend that you use the Search function (in the light gray bar near the top of this page) and look for the term "Loar" to find the many, many threads where these and other questions have been discussed.

Briefly, though, the Loar is the undisputed gold standard for bluegrass; the gold standards for other musical styles are a matter of some debate. I don't know if anyone here was around to hear Loars when they were new, but I wasn't. It's certainly an interesting question. Some builders consciously build to Loar specs and try for a Loar sound; others are doing their own thing. Which builders are most successful at this is another matter of some debate.

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-19-2009, 4:14pm

Briefly, though, the Loar is the undisputed gold standard for bluegrass;

Thank you, I edited my post to read gold standard for BG.

Is it the bark that the Loars had or developed later that made them the GS? If it is something additional, please explain.

Thank you again,

Chuck Naill/Knoxville

**Sean Greer** · Jan-19-2009, 4:24pm

"you appear to have lined up four dead horses here, so look out for flying body parts"

One of the funniest things I've read on the Cafe in some time - and true!

Does anyone know if there are recordings done with the a Loar F-5 when it was relatively new? It would be interesting to hear how they sounded then versus 80 years later. Monroe's would have been 23 years old when he first began recording with it, which in my opinion is a well-seasoned instrument.

I've also wondered about how a mandolin built to sound like an 80 year old Loar will sound in 80 years. I won't name builders, but many are building mandolins that strive to have that "Loar sound" - how will those mandolins sound as they age?

**squirrelabama** · Jan-19-2009, 4:34pm

Was Dave Apollon using a Loar in his earliest recordings? Just a thought... I have no idea.

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-19-2009, 4:44pm

Was Dave Apollon using a Loar in his earliest recordings? Just a thought... I have no idea.

Although not BG, how would you describe the tone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwOZjFvjKUA

chuck naill

**david blair** · Jan-19-2009, 9:27pm

Loar Fest in Bakersfield is a good place to look for an instrument. Next month.

A Loar mandolin to me sounds sweet, mellow, but the notes pop out and carry far. Balanced mid range, not bass heavy, and loud, you know?

**evanreilly** · Jan-19-2009, 9:37pm

Here is another lil YouTube video on Apollon's Loar F-5 http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NRW7tfhimGQ. I might be biased, but I think it is an incredible instrument. Bill Monroe liked it as well.

**recon** · Jan-19-2009, 9:42pm

Appolon's mandolin looks relatively new in this clip also. It sounds pretty good up the neck.

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-19-2009, 10:17pm

Thank you for the videos. What I heard was a bright and resonant tone not unlike the one I am using.

What is interesting is how the F5 has been redefined by being used in a completely different music from the type played in the 20's.

chuck

**mrmando** · Jan-19-2009, 11:55pm

Well, in both of those videos Apollon's playing a Fern. I wonder if there's a documented recording of him playing 73009.

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-20-2009, 5:20am

Well, in both of those videos Apollon's playing a Fern. I wonder if there's a documented recording of him playing 73009

Who owns that one now?

chuck

**AlanN** · Jan-20-2009, 6:08am

Perfect.

**Bernie Daniel** · Jan-20-2009, 6:21am

Sean Greer: Does anyone know if there are recordings done with the a Loar F-5 when it was relatively new? It would be interesting to hear how they sounded then versus 80 years later. Monroe's would have been 23 years old when he first began recording with it, which in my opinion is a well-seasoned instrument.

Sean, interesting thought. One that I think that might or might not be true. Monroe bought his famous Gibson F-5 from a barber shop (1945?) -- we know it was 23 years old but we do not know if it had experienced much acutal play time before he took it home to Kentucky. By the time he gave it up in the fall of 1996 however we do know that it had more than a normal "break in" -- like the entire top

I think though it is safe to say that it must have sounded pretty good to Monroe at the time -- because he bought it.

Chuch Naill: Thank you for the videos. What I heard was a bright and resonant tone not unlike the one I am using.

What is interesting is how the F5 has been redefined by being used in a completely different music from the type played in the 20's.

I would be cautious about trying to conclude much about what a insturment really sounded like from recordings made in the 1930's and reproduced with compression on YouTube. I think the video shows that Appolon was a player with few peers and that's about all it shows -- given the recording equipement of the time he probably could have produced nearly the same sound on a much inferior mandolin.

As the the F-5 being redefined by the music? I'm not sure what this would be anymore true with the F-5 mandolin -- than any other insturment. Would it?

The violin, trumpet and clarinet were also probably designed for classical music and then became mainstays of various folk music forms -- the blues, jazz, dixeland etc.

The F-5 mandolin is a bluegrass icon -- but that does not "define" it in my opinon. It is used with pride in mandolin orchestras still today to play classical and other music.

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-20-2009, 6:48am

The F-5 mandolin is a bluegrass icon -- but that does not "define" it in my opinon. It is used with pride in mandolin orchestras still today to play classical and other music.

Hi Bernie,

That was not the question.

This is what I asked, "I am curious if the Loar era F models are the gold standard for Blue Grass.

I have been looking at F style mandolins for the past few years and the dealers will say something about a particular builder's F style as having a good "chop". Since this percussive tone is characteristic of BG style, it just made me curious if today a builder tries to reproduce the Loar era F5 or do they try to produce the effects of play and time.

I know the builder whose I am playing built them to the specs of the Loar he studied.

chuck

**danb** · Jan-20-2009, 9:51am

Originally Posted by Chuck Naill

I am curious if the Loar era F models are the gold standard for Blue Grass.

Short answer: yep

**Chuck Naill** · Jan-20-2009, 10:27am

Short answer: yep

Why, and don't say because BM played one.

What I am curious about is if the Loars were made for another genre of music, why would they have become the GS for BG? IOW's, why wouldn't a modern F5 built for BG be better?

I apologize if this has been discussed before in one thread. I am just curious about what the many BG experts here think.

chuck

**mrmando** · Jan-20-2009, 11:19am

Originally Posted by Chuck Naill

Who owns that one (73009) now?

chuck

Evan Reilly does, unless he's managed to sell it. If you want to buy a gold standard mandolin, talk to Evan.

**mrmando** · Jan-20-2009, 11:24am

Originally Posted by Chuck Naill

Why, and don't say because BM played one.

What I am curious about is if the Loars were made for another genre of music, why would they have become the GS for BG? IOW's, why wouldn't a modern F5 built for BG be better?

This is a circular question, since likely as not, a "modern F5 built for BG" is crafted to look and sound like a Loar.

No, Loars weren't built intentionally for bluegrass, but a particular Loar turned out to have properties that were ideal for bluegrass anyway. And most other Loars also have those properties.

**woodwizard** · Jan-20-2009, 11:37am

Loar F5's are the holy grail, when it comes to a bluegrass mandolin, that all other builders try to model their F5's sound for. IMHO

**allenhopkins** · Jan-20-2009, 12:06pm

Originally Posted by Chuck Naill

What I am curious about is if the Loars were made for another genre of music, why would they have become the GS for BG? IOW's, why wouldn't a modern F5 built for BG be better?

This is a real "chicken and egg" question. Because Bill Monroe basically invented bluegrass music, putting together the mid-1940's band with Flatt, Scruggs, Chubby Wise, and Howard "Cedric Rainwater" Watts on bass, the instrument he played became the archetype of "bluegrass mandolin" sound. That instrument was his Lloyd Loar-signed Gibson F-5.

If he'd played a different instrument, such as the Gibson F-7 or Epiphone mandolins he'd played before, quite possibly those instruments would now be considered the ones to play for bluegrass. This doesn't mean that they would be "better," "higher quality," or "better sounding" than the Loar F-5's, just that they'd be more closely associated with bluegrass.

There is a consensus that Loar F-5's represent one pinnacle of mandolin construction and sound. Those mandolinists who don't play bluegrass, and don't find the Loar F-5 sound as suitable for their styles of play, may prefer Calace bowl-backs, Lyon & Healy two-points, or Phoenix "neo-classical" instruments. But almost everyone respects the design innovations Loar brought to Gibson, and the few hundred early-'20's F-5's that he signed, as embodying unusually good design and sound.

And a "modern mandolin designed for bluegrass" ends up being one designed very close to a Lloyd Loar F-5, just because that's the sound we most closely associate with "bluegrass mandolin."

**Ken_P** · Jan-20-2009, 12:16pm

I think the impact of the player is being overlooked here. Many other players, BG and not, have used Loars and they don't all sound the same. Mike Marshall plays Jazz, Classical, and Choro on his Loar and it sounds fantastic. If Bill Monroe had ended up with Mike Marshall's Loar, he still would have sounded like Bill Monroe. Similarly, if you gave Bill's Loar to Mike Marshall, he'd sound like Mike Marshall.

Basically, the Loar is the gold standard because Bill Monroe made it sound the way it did.

**Mike Bromley** · Jan-20-2009, 12:46pm

Originally Posted by evanreilly

Here is another lil YouTube video on Apollon's Loar F-5 http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=NRW7tfhimGQ. I might be biased, but I think it is an incredible instrument. Bill Monroe liked it as well.

That's Fred Eisnor's mando???? I had no idea. I had the pleasure of noting that instrument around 1985 or so.

**TomTyrrell** · Jan-20-2009, 1:26pm

Originally Posted by Chuck Naill

Why, and don't say because BM played one.

What I am curious about is if the Loars were made for another genre of music, why would they have become the GS for BG? IOW's, why wouldn't a modern F5 built for BG be better?

I apologize if this has been discussed before in one thread. I am just curious about what the many BG experts here think.

chuck

Tough as it is to accept, the reason the Loar-signed F5s are the GS for Bluegrass is because that is what Bill Monroe made famous as THE Bluegrass mandolin. I'm hard pressed to think of any musical instrument that was designed for a style of music that hadn't been invented yet. Gibson's flathead banjos weren't designed for Bluegrass nor were Martin's dreadnaught guitars.

Had it not been for Bill Monroe choosing the F5 there may very well be no such thing as a modern F5 built for Bluegrass or any other type of music. There wouldn't have been much reason for even Gibson to start making them again.

Since that "Loar sound" is the thing for Bluegrass any F5 built for Bluegrass is for all practical purposes modeled after the Loar-signed Gibson F5s. It is safe to say that any modern F5 will be compared to the originals.

**mrmando** · Jan-20-2009, 1:48pm

Originally Posted by TomTyrrell

I'm hard pressed to think of any musical instrument that was designed for a style of music that hadn't been invented yet.

Partsch instruments and the Hang drum, possibly ... or at least you could say the music was invented along with the instruments.

Not every mandolin used by a bluegrass player is a Loar or built/voiced to Loar specs. But I doubt you're going to find any bluegrass player who would say that another type of mandolin is SUPERIOR to a Loar for bluegrass.

Except Jimmy Martin.