Picking Strategy

[Sandy Beckler]

What type of picking strategy would be used with "Irish Washerwoman" (a jig in 6/8 time) UDUD...DDU...?
Are different patterns used for different time measures.
Thanks
Sanchan

[Mandobar]

generally a jig is played DUD DUD DUD.

[salmoncove]

Irish washerwomen can be played with a steady DU DU pick movement.
Here's a good example. And he talks about pick movement. But the timing of the song is DUD UDU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXWa6q9PsM

Different time patterns are used for different time measures. A Jig beat is DUD UDU. A Reel is DUDU
I'm fairly new (1yr) to mandolin but a more experienced bodhran player. When I play bodhran with good guitar, mandolin or Tenor banjo players (for ITM music), my tipper movement, with the beats I mentioned earlier, are in sync with the pickers right hand movement.

I can pick 7-8 tunes pretty well and up to speed on my mandolin. Another dozen if I have the music in front of me. I found Irish washerwoman to be the easiest to play to date along with Mursheen Durkin. I'm having a helluva time with Soldiers Joy though.

Good luck

Ken

[MikeB]

The subject of pick direction for jigs has been talked to death here, for years. And, though there are a few practitioners who use other 'strategies,' I think even they would recommend DUD DUD for someone just starting out. I got that advice here, maybe 5-6 years ago. I learned it, have stuck with it, and it works for every jig I've ever tried.

One of the trickier parts for me was learning to stay with that DUD pattern, even when you don't actually pick the note--say for a hammer-on, a pick-off, or even the occasional longer note, like in a slip jig. You keep your hand moving as IF it were playing every DUD note....when you can do that, the occasional irregularity falls right into place.

[salmoncove]

The subject of pick direction for jigs has been talked to death here, for years. And, though there are a few practitioners who use other 'strategies,' I think even they would recommend DUD DUD for someone just starting out. I got that advice here, maybe 5-6 years ago. I learned it, have stuck with it, and it works for every jig I've ever tried.

I haven't been here that long so I don't know what the discussion were regarding Jig beats. The beat is DUD UDU, anything else is inefficient. If one can play it with a constant DUD stroke though, I'd say more power to ya. Just like the guy in vid I posted. Hard to play faster than that.
I'm not good enough on the mandolin yet for it to make any difference in my playing.
But when playing bodhran, a DUD DUD for a jig is nearly impossible if assisting a fast accordion or fiddle player. Once a down stroke is made it'll take too long to bring the tipper up to make another downstroke. If the tipper is down you almost always have to strike the skin again on the way up (if playing fast). And why wouldn't you, you have to bring it up anyway, might as well hit the skin on the way.

As far as mandolin picking goes, I'm sure your a much better player than I. I'm just trying to bring my drum experience into my pick timing.

All the best.

BTW I played Soldiers Joy another 50-60 times again today. Couple hundred more times and I'll let someone else ( besides my kids) listen.

Ken

[foldedpath]

I haven't been here that long so I don't know what the discussion were regarding Jig beats. The beat is DUD UDU, anything else is inefficient. If one can play it with a constant DUD stroke though, I'd say more power to ya. Just like the guy in vid I posted. Hard to play faster than that.

It's not about efficiency or playing fast. Playing fast comes later, after you get a feel for the dance rhythms in Irish and related music, and how that translates to moving a pick with your fingers.

Listen to good fiddle players, good pipe and whistle players, good concertina players. Listen to the pulse of a jig. There's a reason why most of us who get into Irish 'trad use DUD DUD, or sometimes DDU, DDU when picking a fretted instrument on a jig. Follow the pulse of the fiddler's bow.

[Bertram Henze]

Playing DUD UDU depends on the player's ability to make upstrokes as pronounced as downstrokes. I do this - diluted with direction changes at string changes or for double stop purposes - for over 20 years, so changing that now would require total rewiring of half my brain.

But if I had to start from scratch, I'd tend to follow Dan Beimborn's way of DDU DDU because of the lightly pointed swing it creates.

Bertram

[John McGann]

I haven't been here that long so I don't know what the discussion were regarding Jig beats. The beat is DUD UDU, anything else is inefficient.
Ken

Hi Ken- the thing is that when you tap your foot to a jig, it's on the 1st and 4th attacks, and you feel each measure "in two". The notation for that pulse would be dotted quarter notes. There are three melody notes for each of those pulses in "Irish Washerwoman".

DUD DUD emphasizes 'the beat' much better, since the pulse is DAH da da DAH da da. Those DAHS want to be downstrokes, regardless of if you go for Dan B's DDU DDU or DUD DUD. Downstrokes will beat upstrokes anytime you want emphasis on an acoustic stringed instrument (electrics/amp tend to obscure the difference, but on acoustic stringed instruments played with good technique, it makes a ton of difference).

DUDUDU gives you a weaker group of 3, and sounds like what is called a 'hemiola', playing 3 groups of two across the bar rather than two groups of three. As a drummer, you could trying sticking patterns/accents that would be analogous.

This falls under the umbrella of "articulation" that other instrumentalists obsess over; it's worth thinking about, because it's important to the music.

As far as speed goes, the majority of players use this at dance tempos and (often much faster) concert/session tempos...for that matter, there are players in other styles who use all downstrokes for certain phrases and are quite fast at it, from Monroe to Metallica

Alternate picking is awesome and essential, but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution, especially for Chuck Berry type kickoffs- contrast how it sounds to play the Johnny B. Goode riff with alternate vs. all downs- it becomes totally different music.

[montanasteve]

John McGann makes a good point, but i just learned this song about two weeks ago and personally i like DUD UDU. I think its more of a personal preference sort of thing to where you should do it so that it feels natural and sounds good to you. Going DUD UDU I do miss some of the up beats-i'm still workin on it- but that happens less and less the more I practice it.

I'd just try it out and go with what works for you

[zoukboy]

Amen to what John wrote and I'll just add my own 2 cents worth...

When playing jigs, Irish trad players often lengthen those 1st and 4th notes that John mentioned, and they do this by slightly delaying the 2nd and 5th notes. This is one of the things that gives the Irish jig its characteristic "lilting" rhythm. If one uses DUD DUD then all the delayed notes (2nd and 5th) are on upstrokes, and all of the stressed notes (1st and 4th but just as often 3rd and 6th) are on downstrokes. It supports the jig rhythm in a way that DUD UDU just doesn't.

Happy plucking!

[stevebenn]

Roger: It's apparent to me that MontanaSteve is taking a more granular approach to his jig picking

Happy Holidays
Steve

[salmoncove]

I hate to be argumentative about this but a jig beat is DUD UDU and nothing else. If anyone plays it a different way and it works well, that's great.
And it obviously works with many folks here. DUD DUD will not work well playing the bodhran. I can make it work just as I can play my bodhran to Rock and Bluegrass. The beat you describe is not the "correct way in a tradition sense".

There's no simpler way of describing or playing a jig beat on said drum then by playing DUD UDU. And I would believe it to be more recognizable as a jig beat than DUD DUD on a stringed instrument will ever be.
I often lead in, in played sets during a session and set the pace with this beat and the others join in.

I grew up in Newfoundland where ITM, NFLD, Celtic and Cape Breton music was all was played. Almost every house has an accordion player living in it.
I moved to Nova Scotia 18 yrs ago and here fiddles take the place of accordions. Again playing Cape Breton, Irish, NFLD, Celtic songs and tunes. So although I'm new to this mandolin stuff the music I am not.

To the original poster... I apologize for starting this debate.
Good luck with Irish Washerwoman. It's one of my favorite tunes.

I'll go away now.

Ken

[liestman]

Just guessing here, but there may be subtle differences between what works on bodhrans vs mandolins.

[allenhopkins]

Just guessing here, but there may be subtle differences between what works on bodhrans vs mandolins.

Yeah, more strings on mandolins, but you don't usually play 'em with a tipper.

[danb]

Irish washerwomen can be played with a steady DU DU pick movement.
Here's a good example. And he talks about pick movement. But the timing of the song is DUD UDU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tXWa6q9PsM

This clip from Ken is a good illustration of comments that Roger & John made about the pulse in the tune. The maker of the video is hitting all the notes and keeping a nice steady beat, but is not hitting the pulse and feel of an Irish jig. This is the subtlety that is the reason for the "Broken" pattern or downstrokes on the 1 & 4 beats.

It's a subtlety that is usually taken in subconciously when you listen to a great performance, but it's something you really learn to hear in the music and miss when it is not there.

[Ravenwood]

I don't know Allen. There are days when I feel like I am playing with a tipper.

Ken has an interesting perspective coming from bodhran, but some of it is playing style. I play bodhran using Roscommon style so I am using the knuckles of my right hand rather than a tipper. In this style reels are played DUDU DUDU and jigs DUD DUD just as John and Roger suggest for mandolin. Triplets can be added to bodhran playing in a fashion almost identical to what Roger describes in his article on mando ornaments.

Having tried a tipper I can see Ken's perspective on efficiency, but I don't think that transfers very well to mandolin. I know there are a few instructors who teach DUD UDU, but I think they are very much in the minority, and often are coming from a fiddle background. Trying to execute a DUD DUD bowing pattern can be problematic so many fiddlers (myself included) use a DUD UDU pattern on jigs because of its efficiency, just as Ken does with bodhran. But with a bow you also have control over the pressure of the bow, and the speed/acceleration across the strings making it possible to adjust the up stroke to add emphasis where needed.

My primary point here is that what works on one instrument doesn't necessarily transfer to another. There are some basic techniques and skills that have been developed for each because they are unique instruments requiring differing approaches to produce the same rhythm.

[Sandy Beckler]

Greetings and Happy Holidays...

Very interesting dialog, thanks to all contributors.
We may not all agree with each others point of view, but then what a boring place the Cafe would be if we did.
No apologies needed Salmoncove, thanks for you input!
again, Happy Holidays Friends and have a great New Year.

Sanchan

[MikeB]

I apologize for starting this debate.

Hey, Salmoncove, you never need to apologize for starting, or continuing this kind of discussion around here. You are a relative newbie here, and I can understand how you might feel. After you've been around here awhile, you'll find this sort of discussion going on all the time--on almost every aspect of mandolins, music, techniques...and more. Never take it personally. You gave great input here and were very civil and kind about it. That's all that's ever expected.

Your comment about playing the drum is interesting, too. I play a little, and understand how DUD UDU is really the only way to get jig time on a Bodhran. What I can't adequately explain is why the experts seem to agree that DUD DUD (or something close) is so important on mandolin. We have some real experts around here (perhaps you are one, judging from your background in ITM). Maybe one of them will wade in with a more convincing argument than I can give. None will attack you for holding a differing opinion.

I know from having asked this same question a long time ago, and having read the same answers given to others that the consensus seems to be that if you are just beginning with jigs, that DUD DUD--or something close to it--is more likely to give you the keys to playing jigs with the "right" feel.

I took that advice back then, and it's worked very well for me. Your Mileage May Vary. Your opinion may be contested, but it will be appreciated and respected. I think I speak for most people here on this. You obviously have a perspective unique from mine, at least, and I hope you are not discouraged from sharing it with us in the future. Please stick around!

[Sandy Beckler]

Very well put Mike....Kudos

Sanchan

[ald]

Hijacking this threat a little bit. Does anybody have any suggestions for pick directions on the first verse of the Belfast hornpipe? You wouldn't keep to straight up and down there would you?

[MikeB]

ald--Hornpipes are in fours, this is, 4/4. I'd play it DUDUDU.... If it's the triplets that you are wondering about, that's another whole subject, but seems to me your choices are to either pick every note of the triplet DUD (which might require you to switch pick direction to get back on track, like at the end of a DUD triplet, repeat a downstoke to restart your DUDUDU), or to use some kind of downstroke, hammer-on, pick-off combination for the triplets and make sure you get back to the DUDU afterwards. A search should turn up dozens, if not hundreds of more informed advice than this...

[Ravenwood]

Salmoncove: I very definitely agree with Mike - no apologies necessary. I thought the point you made bringing in bodhran technique really interesting, and something I hadn't seen in other discussions. I think many of us come to mandolin and ITM having played another instrument, or having trained in another tradition, so we bring with us different kinds of insight. Sometimes that brings in good habits, sometimes bad, and sometimes just personal idiosyncracies.

For triplet picking stratgey Roger Landes wrote a very nice article found at http://mandolinsessions.com/feb05/celtic.html

[Bren]

Do you mean the part with all the triplets?

[POB]

a jig beat is DUD UDU and nothing else...DUD DUD will not work well playing the bodhran.

I must respectfully disagree with this. DUD DUD, DUD UDU and DDU DDU are all well-established jig patterns in the bodhrán world. Unless the jig is being played at a truly insane speed, it's entirely possible to play the consecutive down strokes needed for DUD DUD or DDU DDU. Almost all of the bodhrán players I've ever worked with mix it up to suit the tune/context. For that matter, I was a bodhrán player in my youth and did likewise. Also, many players who use only one end of the stick, or who play with the back of the hand can throw in triplets in fast reels which involve very fast consecutive down strokes in order to emerge from the triplet in the desired direction. You also get a lot of modern players who frequently play the occasional passage of consecutive down strokes - DDDD instead of DUDU, just for variety.

I take your point about efficiency but the same argument can be applied to picking tunes in 4/4 time where string crossing is involved: sometimes it can be more "efficient" to deviate from strict DUDUDUDU but this can be at the expense of pulse. And the pulse is very, very important.

My point is, consecutive down strokes in jigs on the bodhrán are, in my experience, completely common, orthodox and desirable. And likewise for the mandolin.

As usual, YMMV.

[MikeB]

(Hey, Salmoncove...see what I mean? You're in good company here.... )