Powwow the indian boy

[Alex Orr]

I recently got my first Hot Rize album - their debut...the one with the biscuit on the cover.

Wow!

How did I go this long without ever getting into this band? Oh well, better late than never, right?

So, I LOVE "Powwow the Indian Boy". It's such a cool, minor-key sounding fiddle tune. One of the things that really blows my mind about this tune is the last part of Tim O'Brien's first solo. What is happening there?!?!?! It sounds like he's overdubbing a second mandolin for those cool, sort've trebly bends that happen right before the banjo takes back the lead...or is it just a guitar line playing a complimentary unison passage? It's not a banjo...I don't think. And I don't see how it can be one mandolin playing that because it seems like there is already one mandolin cross-picking a melody in a lower-range. So, it must be another mandolin doing those cool bending licks? I guess another way to phrase this question is: How can I do that?

Does anyone know this part, and have any good answers? In the meantime I'll just keep on giddily listening to it and pondering how it's being done.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Alex,i'm listening to 'Pow wow......' as i type. I certainly think that there is another 'over-dubbed' Mandolin playing along there. In the liner notes,Pete Wernick expresses the view that Quote :- " Tim (O'Brien) also understands that to play traditional music,one need not sacrifice progressive attitudes or creative drive". I think that he meant the degree of over-dubbing on Tim's Mandolin was 'progressive & creative' to try to placate the 'purists'. Whatever - i think personally that it sounds terrific & yes,it is a really cool tune.Come to think of it,now that you've drawn my attention to it Alex,i'll add it to my
'try to play it' list,
Saska

[adgefan]

I attended a workshop with Tim a few years back and he taught us about how in this song he detunes one of the E strings to C and then bends and plays it behind the nut. Unfortunately I can't remember much more than that but perhaps this is what you're hearing?

[Fretbear]

He is definitely making some bends on the E string behind the nut.
Crunch, you want to hear a good album, get "Traditional Ties"; everything they did was great, but that one is scary good...

[Alex Orr]

I'll add Traditional Ties to my "need to buy" list. #I'm probably going to end up with quite a few Hot Rize albums #

Ahhh...a detuned bend behind the nut. #Yeah, that sounds about right. #Of course I never would have considered that such a thing could even be done if it hadn't come up in this thread. #Wow. #What a cool trick. #I'm guessing that's one that I may need to play a bit longer before I attempt. #

Now that I think about it, I vaguely recall a Bill Monroe tune where Big Mon gets a similar sound. #It's not as head-turningly cool - I think it was on a slower tune, maybe a waltz - but it seems like he may have used a similar trick. #Maybe that was where O'Brien got the idea? #Even if he is doing that, I still think the lick is overdubbed on top of the cross-picking pattern he's doing - that just couldn't be one mandolin doing all that.

It's interesting to consider that tune without that trick and with no overdub. #There is a very good cover on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRCoZ...eature=related), and the mando player certainly can play, but it is missing whatever the heck it is that they put on the album, which makes me think it must have been an overdubbed.

[Mike Bunting]

Isn't that the album where they used phase shifters, maybe that's what you heard. I'll have to dig it out and listen again.

[Alex Orr]

Isn't that the album where they used phase shifters, maybe that's what you heard. I'll have to dig it out and listen again.

Wernick uses phase-shifted banjo a fair amount on this album, including on "Powwow the Indian Boy". Normally this is the kind of thing that might annoy me, but for some reason, it just sounds super-cool in this contrext. I don't think O'brien uses one.

[fredfrank]

Tim is simply tuning one of the E strings differently than the other and pushing down on them between the nut and the tuning machines.

Seriously, that's what it is.

I have the Homespun series where he explains it. I even learned this tune the way he does it, but quit playing it 'cause I was breaking too many strings.

[Ivan Kelsall]

All the Hot Rize albums are worth having. The were sorely missed after they disbanded following the death of their Guitar player,Charles Sawtelle. I for one am delighted to see them back together again with Bryan Sutton on Guitar - a heck of a band !!,
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Saska

[Alex Orr]

Tim is simply tuning one of the E strings differently than the other and pushing down on them between the nut and the tuning machines.

Seriously, that's what it is.

I have the Homespun series where he explains it. I even learned this tune the way he does it, but quit playing it 'cause I was breaking too many strings.

Fred, thanks for clearing up the mystery. Those behind the nut bends are a cool trick. I know some local tele players who can really make some cool sounds using that technique, but I never really thought of someone using it on a mandolin.