Poplar necks

**crazymandolinist** · Jul-25-2008, 5:13pm

Just wondering how good poplar guitar necks are, as well as mando, bass, and other types of necks. I found that this wood is like dirt cheap, (maybe even cheaper than dirt per board foot vs. yard)

. Anyways if anyone has tried this on any instrument let me know how it went. I'd especially like to know if it's good for guitars.

**Paul Hostetter** · Jul-25-2008, 5:22pm

Poplar has several problems: 1) it's soft and dents easily; 2) it compresses easily, which is why you see so many cheap Chicago instruments with poplar necks that have pulled up at the dovetail. It just doesn't hold up to compression, even though it's fairly strong wood; 3) it's boring to look at.

There is a variety of poplar native to Europe that was and is used for violins and so on, but it's very different wood from all the poplar/basswood/popple sold in the States.

**Hans** · Jul-25-2008, 7:21pm

No.

**markishandsome** · Jul-25-2008, 7:25pm

Poplar is good for solid body electric bodies because you can paint and lacquer the problems Paul noted. Unfigured maple is also pretty cheap, as is mahogany, both proven neck woods.

**Michael Lewis** · Jul-26-2008, 12:32am

It takes as much time to make an instrument out of poor quality wood as it does to make one from good wood. You will have by far more invested in time in any instrument you make than the cost of the materials. In short, the materials are a small part of your expense. When I spend 250 or more hours on an instrument I want to sell it for an amount that will repay me for my time. It is nearly impossible to do that if top quality materials are not used.

Now, if you want to make the cheapest instruments you can, go dumpster diving behind cabinet shops, salvage old pallets, find wood wherever you can and use it. You won't sell them for much, but so what! You'll be having fun.

**BlueMountain** · Jul-26-2008, 6:37am

While agreeing with everything above, I made a pretty little case for a pocket mandolin out of poplar from Lowe's. Cost about $20 for the wood. I understand that most grand pianos are made of poplar, but then they are veneered. I have some tulip poplars near my house, and I have to cut them when they die. I have about a cord of poplar in my firewood shed at the moment. One thing I've noticed about it is that it dries much faster than oak or maple, and it's much lighter dry than oak or maple. I guess a grand piano made of oak would be a lot heavier than the poplar.

**brunello97** · Jul-26-2008, 8:07am

Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ July 25 2008, 18:22)

There is a variety of poplar native to Europe that was and is used for violins and so on, but it's very different wood from all the poplar/basswood/popple sold in the States.

Paul, I have come to depend on you as one of the few guys to have your species/variety names down in the Latin. #It has been a big help and prompted me to learn more of and about these woods. #Any leads on the Euro-poplars you are speaking of?

BTW I have seen what I've thought to be poplar-oid wood on an Italian bowlback or two where the neck veneer has blistered or broken away. #

Thanks,

Mick

**Dale Ludewig** · Jul-26-2008, 9:04am

I also don't think it would be a good idea for structural and acoustic reasons.

**Spruce** · Jul-26-2008, 9:36am

Originally Posted by (crazymandolinist @ July 25 2008, 15:13)

Just wondering how good poplar guitar necks are, as well as mando, bass, and other types of necks. I found that this wood is like dirt cheap, (maybe even cheaper than dirt per board foot vs. yard)

. Anyways if anyone has tried this on any instrument let me know how it went. I'd especially like to know if it's good for guitars.

Confusing subject....

"Poplar" sold in the US is actually Liriodendron tulipifera, and is not related to poplar in any way, shape, or form except for it's popular (poplar?) name...

It's the stuff with the greenish hue (like in BlueMountain's box), with maple-esque weights, and is probably the stuff you're wondering about, crazymandolinist....

And it makes fine necks, with thousands-and-thousands of Danelectros from the 60's as examples....

But, true poplar of the Poplulus family would indeed make a lousy neck, for all the reasons cited...

But I doubt that's what we're dealing with here, as wood from the Poplulus family is rarely marketed commercially....

How Liriodendron tulipifera got the "Poplar" moniker I'll never know, but it's just one more example of how popular names can make things very confusing in the wood world....

"Poplar has several problems: 1) it's soft and dents easily; 2) it compresses easily, which is why you see so many cheap Chicago instruments with poplar necks that have pulled up at the dovetail. It just doesn't hold up to compression, even though it's fairly strong wood; 3) it's boring to look at."

Were you referring to Liriodendron tulipifera here, Paul? #Or examples of true poplar?

I've only seen the stuff in old Danos, where it held up OK. #But we're talking bolt on necks (w/ BR fingerboards no less)...

And yes, it is boring to look at.... # #

**brunello97** · Jul-26-2008, 10:10am

Thanks, Bruce. Not to muddy the 'popular' name vs species name further, but is the Liriodendron tulipifera sometimes also referred to as 'tulip tree'? It seems at some point I was led to believe that the poplar we were using for stairs, furniture etc. might actually be sourced form these rather than a 'populus' variety (which I have heard used to name some of the fast growing hedge trees sometimes planted along property lines.) I have used 'poplar' for stair treads a few times-particularly when you get a nice batch with more grey than green coloration. I know it may sound reckless to wood-niks, but some clients have sought that smooth, worn tread look over time.

I enjoy how the common names have evolved and spread with migration of people and plants, but it does get confusing sometimes and the use of the latin names here has certainly helped a lot.

Let's see what Paul kicks in....

Mick

**Spruce** · Jul-26-2008, 10:42am

"Not to muddy the 'popular' name vs species name further, but is the Liriodendron tulipifera sometimes also referred to as 'tulip tree'?"

Yes.

**Woody Turner** · Jul-26-2008, 11:47am

In my woodworking experience here in the U.S., "poplar" has always referred to yellow poplar (L. tulipifera), NOT the cottonwoods, aspens, lombardy, and other members of Populus spp. (Naturally, the vernacular will vary in Europe and elsewhere.) Because of its tuliplike flower, yellow poplar also goes by the name tulip poplar. The wood is sometimes called whitewood. To make matters more confusing, there's a member of the rosewood family named "tulipwood" (Dalbergia variablis, a gorgeous candy-cane wood that comes from small tropical logs). Unfortunaely, like so many woods with brilliant red streaks, it tends to fade quickly.

I think Michael Lewis nailed it when he asked why someone would use a utilitarian species like tulip poplar--often selected for hidden cabinet interiors as a cheap alternative to plywood--when there are so many better woods out there. Poplar does not have nearly the abrasion resistance of maple, and it's "stringy" under a hand tool (the fibers don't want to be cut cleanly).

**testore** · Jul-26-2008, 12:00pm

I made one cello with a poplar neck and scroll. No problems at all. The Guarneri's did it very often also, as did the Testore family. However, maple is the better choice. Good poplar, not the stuff in the photo, can be found and if it's well seasoned and a dense enough example it is great wood.

**Paul Hostetter** · Jul-26-2008, 1:34pm

Originally Posted by

Were you referring to Liriodendron tulipifera here, Paul? Or examples of true poplar?

I'm referring to the generic American popples which include basswood, tulip, aspen, cottonwood, and a host of other soft hardwoods used in the cabinet trade (also used on scads of Harmony, Kay and Regal instruments). Wood dealers don't distinguish between them in the yards - they look alike and the machine alike. I couldn't pretend to know which species ended up in which neck, and I doubt the manufacturers really knew themselves. I'd hoped to make the distinction with Lombardy (European black) poplar, which I know makes terrific violins and so forth, but which is entirely other stuff.

The American stuff is as stable as a neckwood could be, in terms of the shaft staying straight and so on, but dovetails just don't last because it compresses.

**Woody Turner** · Jul-26-2008, 2:13pm

Compression stats (fiber stress at proportional limit, courtesy of the other Bruce [Hoadley]):

American Basswood: 3,800 psi
Eastern cottonwood: 3,490 psi
Yellow poplar: 3,730 psi

Red maple: 4,650 psi
Sugar maple 5,390 psi

**crazymandolinist** · Jul-26-2008, 2:13pm

Thanks for the many replies. I see mixed opinions which isn't exactly what I want, but it is something. The poplar I'm looking at is the one also known as tulip wood. I've also been wondering whether ash would make good necks for stuff of the like. What I'm really looking for is a good sturdy wood that can be used for necks and solidbody instruments that doesn't cost so much as say mahogany. If I do have to buy mahogany I'd be okay, I'm just looking to save some money I could be spending on hardware and guitar pickups. Again I appreciate all your posts.

**Woody Turner** · Jul-26-2008, 3:38pm

"I've also been wondering whether ash would make good necks..."

I'd certainly go for ash over poplar because of ash's greater density, but it might make an instrument seem neck-heavy to some players. Also, if you're considering making sides and backs from ash, keep in mind that it bends far more easily than many woods. Lastly, a number of woodworkers ebonize ash to great effect, with the distinct earlywood pores standing out crisply from the polished, darkly stained latewood. As a ring-porous wood, however, ash has a texture quite different from diffuse-porous woods like maple and birch.

**markishandsome** · Jul-26-2008, 6:40pm

Since when is mahogany so expensive? Some varieties (I think honduran?) are overpriced, but the cheap (african?) stuff is just fine and looks traditional.

**Paul Hostetter** · Jul-26-2008, 6:59pm

I experimented years ago with ash, oak and elm for banjo necks. They're fairly similar, not particularly heavy, but I found filling the grain was kind of a nuisance. From a structural standpoint, they'd trump poplar/basswood/et al, but I think there's a reason why the most used neck woods are what they are. The only necks I've experienced that were so heavy that you noticed were rosewood, and even then, the tonal aspect compensated for the extra weight.

Originally Posted by

I see mixed opinions which isn't exactly what I want, but it is something. The poplar I'm looking at is the one also known as tulip wood.

That falls, according to the Hoadley (who I take quite seriously) stats Woody posted, in the rather too-compressible zone. I would stay away from woods with sketchy track records when you can get lookalikes, such as maple, cheaper and know they will be better structurally and aesthetically. How about birch, if figure doesn't matter? It's a known quantity. Cherry is another one.

I hope you realize that the mixed opinions are about rather different woods and equally different applications. I don't think the fundamental opinions are very different.

**crazymandolinist** · Jul-26-2008, 7:48pm

How about Sapele?

**buddyellis** · Jul-26-2008, 10:08pm

Most 'mahogany' these days is Sapele. It's quite similar to mahogany in look and would work fine for a neck as well as back/sides I think. I dunno that I've ever seen a sapele mandolin, but a blond with sapele b/s would look pretty cool with the silking/striping you can get with that wood.

**crazymandolinist** · Jul-27-2008, 11:41am

Awesome, I'll try that. Thanks guys.

**Bill Snyder** · Jul-27-2008, 1:30pm

A nearby hardwoods dealer sells African mahogany for about $5.50 bf. To find any quartered you will have to look through the pile, but it is the same price. They sell in random widths and lengths (primarily wholesale) up to 8/4 thick (a full 2"). For $30 you can get enough for several necks. Maple is similarly priced and Spanish Cedar isn't much different. Point being if you know what to look for you can good wood for not much more than questionable wood.
If you do not have the knowledge or time to track down good wood contact someone like Bruce Harvie (Spruce) and tell him you want wood of good quality but appearance is not important. I bet he could fix you up with what you need for less than you think.
I just looked at his website and see neckblocks for $15.