Eastmans

[MikeEdgerton]

Near as I can tell, all production mandolins are "price point" mandolins.

Yes they are, perhaps I should have said something like entry to mid-price point. The point I was making is that only one will rise to the top as the mandolin du jour here on the cafe at any time. There will always be a bigger market at the current Eastman price levels than at the higher prices. Nobody can argue that.

Historically there have been a few in this league. They rise, they hold for a while, and then there's a new kid in town. Thus far Eastman seems to have done well holding their own through a slew of new kids. Eventually there will be a faster gun in town.

[Five]

[QUOTE]giannaviolins
I know that in violins some of the best seem nothing special at first until they're thoroughly woken up, and that in guitars some of the nicest sounding new ones seem to soften up and play out in a year or two.

I agree Steve and believe this also holds true for mandolins. This fact makes buying a new mandolin an educated guess.

[Barb Friedland]

Choosing a mandolin is such a subjective thing. What's "good" not only varies from person to person but also from time to time. I started out on a perfectly good top of the line Eastman F as my beginner instrument and it was a good way to get going. But within about a year I became aware that something I wanted was missing sound wise. The Weber Fern A and BRW 2 point I own now are a world apart from the old Eastman sound wise and playability wise as well for what I need to hear and feel.

[MikeEdgerton]

...This fact makes buying a new mandolin an educated guess...

Buy one that sounds good from the get go and you won't have to worry about it. It will just get better. Buying one and expecting it to get better might just disappoint you in the long run.

[Celtic Saguaro]

Agreeing with Mike. Whenever I've picked the one I liked best in a store with a good selection, I haven't wanted to give that mandolin up no matter the brand, no matter how cheap or expensive it was. #They are all mandolins I'm still very happy to play. One of them happens to be an Eastman. I wish everyone could have the opportunity to buy their mandolin in person from a great store.

[Five]

[QUOTE]Mike
Buy one that sounds good from the get go and you won't have to worry about it. It will just get better.

Mike, I hate to disagree but all do not get better. Some never change much, some become to mushy, and others improve. Most mandolins do not sound the same after twenty minutes much less after two years. I did not mean to infer that a bad sounding mandolin will become a good sounding instrument if only given enough time. Only that most times what you buy new is not what you will have after given some time to break in. Of course opinions are like you XXXXXX and everyone has one.

[pager]

How come banjo players never discuss things like this? I have never heard a banjo player say "My Gibson Mastertone sounds better than your Deering!" Why are they so comfortable with their instruments while us mandolin players seem so hung up on what is one the headstock? Why do I have the feeling that my comment is going to be followed by dozens of banjo jokes?

[Rob Powell]

How come banjo players never discuss things like this? I have never heard a banjo player say "My Gibson Mastertone sounds better than your Deering!" Why are they so comfortable with their instruments while us mandolin players seem so hung up on what is one the headstock? Why do I have the feeling that my comment is going to be followed by dozens of banjo jokes?

cuz they caint reed.

[Rob Powell]

Seriously, not being a banjer player but only hearing about a small handful of banjer makers, maybe they don't have as many choices?

I've found mandolin players to be obsessive about a lot of things

Besides, they probably do talk about it a lot, you just can't hear what they're saying over their playing

[Five]

If you don't think banjo players are bad. Check the going price for pat. appld. for national banjo picks on the bay sometime or start a discussion on tone rings.

[pager]

I stand corrected. They do obsess over tone rings.

[MikeEdgerton]

Mike, I hate to disagree but all do not get better. Some never change much, some become to mushy, and others improve. Most mandolins do not sound the same after twenty minutes much less after two years. I did not mean to infer that a bad sounding mandolin will become a good sounding instrument if only given enough time. Only that most times what you buy new is not what you will have after given some time to break in. Of course opinions are like you XXXXXX and everyone has one.

No reason to be sorry, that reinforces my point. Only buy one that sounds good from the start. Buying one and expecting it to get better will probably disappoint you.

Some people seem to think that if they put a mandolin in front of their stereo speakers day and night or play it for a few years it will get better. It might but chances are it probably won't. Buy a good one in the first place and you'll be happier down the road.

[MikeEdgerton]

How come banjo players never discuss things like this?

I'm assuming you've figured out that they do. Guitar players do the same thing as well. When you sit and listen to people that are into stereo speakers you understand that they do to, as do golfers, as do people that are into photography, etc.

This trait has nothing to do with mandolins and everything to do with being human beings.

[Capt. E]

"Eastman is just the latest and greatest price point mandolin"

Now we have the Jade mandolins being introduced. I admit to being caught up a bit in the buzz about them and look forward to playing one in the next week or so. Maybe they will be the next "best value". We'll be arguing about the merits of Jade soon enough, I am sure.

[pager]

Yes, us guitar players do obsess over our guitars. I was a jazz guitar major. The irritating thing about electric guitars is that after a proper setup, my $800.00 Ibanez Artcore (made in China) plays every bit as well as my Gibson Byrdland. I also play a lot of jazz so I use both guitars. So with guitars, the statement that playability increases with price, after a certain price point, is not valid. The Ibanez sounds so well, and plays so well, that I often wonder why I purchased the Byrdland.

So ... does a 5000.00 mandolin that is set up, play better than a 1000.00 mandolin after it is set up? If so, why? A good setup in the guitar world can certainly make a 800.00 dollar guitar play as well as an 8000.00 guitar. If this is true with guitars, why are mandolins different? I am not being argumentative, I am just honestly asking because apparently, I don't know!

[Five]

pager, I am with you. I would like to know the answer to this also.

[MikeEdgerton]

I had an excellent Eastman 615 set up by a very competent luthier (David Nichols). When I chose it I chose it over some more expensive Eastman mandolins. It played well, sounded good. I didn't know there was a difference until the day I started playing other more expensive mandolins. Suddenly there was a bottom and a high end that wasn't there in the Eastman (and hasn't been there on any Eastman I've played since, that would be dozens). What's the difference? You got me but it's there. If you're happy and satisfied that that what you got is the best there is then be happy that you've beat Mas. If you can go out and play a room full of Gibsons, Gilchrists, Nuggets, Brentrups, whatever and not see a difference between your Eastman and them then you have reached nirvana and you need to search no longer for the perfect mandolin. You're there. Believe me, these folks get more money because people are willing to pay more money. They're willing to pay more money for a reason, it isn't mass hysteria (or mas hysteria as the case may be), there are differences. You have to experience it. My Volkswagen will get me from point A to point B. I'd probably be a little more comfortable in a Mercedes and I'd probably get there faster in a Ferarri. I can be happy with my Volkswagen but I'd be silly if I said there was no difference between it and the other two. That doesn't mean I can't be satisfied with my Volkswagen.

As for electric guitars, I'm with you there but I can tell the difference between most inexpensive guitars and my Martin or my Taylor.

[JHo]

Kind of off topic but I think it relates to this discussion, a Honda and an Acura are both made by Honda, both may even be made in the same factories. What makes the Acura nicer and/or more desireable? Better component parts, better workmanship, more attention to detail, and higher standards of what would be acceptable to or expected by their customers. Oh, and better handling, better acceleration, better braking, quieter in the cabin, nicer stereo system, nicer cockpit ergonomics, comfier seats, etc. Personally I drive a Honda, and as far as transportation goes I don't need the extra that an Acura offers, but I have no illusion that a TL coupe isn't significantly nicer in many ways than my old Accord, which I do intend to keep until the wheels fall off.

Edit: Mike you just beat me to it, the auto comparison.

[Five]

Mike
I believe you are paying for the consistent craftsmanship and tonal quality these builders maintain along with hopes that they will be good investments. You do not get over twenty thousand for a mando just because people like you.

[Caleb]

I'm a bit surprised that more fans of Eastman haven't chimed in here. These threads are normally packed with the praises of Eastman owners and fans, but there seems to be more critics in this thread.

I think what Mike is saying is true with the auto comparison, but I still don't really understand _what_ makes those differences in the mando world. I'm sure a Gilchrist is "nicer" than an Eastman, but if they are both built by hand, slowly, with all solid woods and quality hardware, and if they were both set up, I guess I really don't know what would make one "better" than the other.

Perhaps the difference is in craftsmanship. I really don't know. But I have a hard time saying that one craftsman is automatically better than another simply because he lives in a different country. I know there are craftsmen all over the world that care abouth their craft.

Back in my early days of playing guitar I got really hung up on brand names and spend way too much time reading magazine ads by guitar companies. I went through many guitars and realized that my music wasn't getting much better, because I was focused on the instrument and not the music. So these days I try to focus more on the music than the instrument; this applies to the mandolin as well. For me, any "good" instrument that is set up well, holds tune, and sounds good will do. I know that if I were to go out and play 1000 instruments I'd never truly find one that completely amazes me in every way, so at some point I have to choose something to make music with and move on. Also, I've noticed that if I keep going to shops and playing stuff I'll continue to find instruments that I like. When does this end? There will always be a better instrument, so I guess my point is that I've learned to move on and be content and try not to look back.

Sorry for the long post. Just thinking outloud a bit...

[pager]

Well ... I guess half of you must think I am mental since I hold that my Eastman compares well with my Collings or the Gibson Fern that I used to own ... or the Weber ... or the F9. Maybe I am crazy. My wife thinks so. The bad thing about being crazy is - you don't know that you are. Hmm.

Anyway, I am off to play a festival. Whoo hoo! For the half of you that agree with me, I am taking my cannon of an Eastman. For the other half that think I am nuts, I am taking my dud of an Eastman. There. I think I covered my bases.

ps: Caleb, - you can go to festivals with me anytime!

[a12]

How do the 900 series compare with the lower numbered
series?
I sure like the looks of their two point f hole model at
the 900 series #.

[LKN2MYIS]

How do the 900 series compare with the lower numbered
series?
I sure like the looks of their two point f hole model at
the 900 series #.

I believe the differences are pretty much cosmetic. Supposedly prettier woods, not sure.

I have an Eastman MD904D, and it is beautiful. Plays great and sounds sweet. I like it a lot. I didn't compare it to any other Eastmans, just tried it and loved it. I believe the curly maple binding is the main difference between it and a slightly 'lower' (i.e., less expensive model) as well.

My other mandolins all sound different from each other, which is what I want. I wouldn't say it is inferior in anyway. Great craftsmanship, playability, and tone. Is it a
Gibson? Nope. If I wanted a mandolin that sounded like a
Gibson, I would have bought a Gibson!

From Steve's wonderful site Giannaviolins.com, where I got my Eastman:

http://www.giannaviolins.com/esmando/info/Table.html

This shows a comparison of sorts between the Eastman models.
Hope this helps.

[groveland]

I'm a bit surprised that more fans of Eastman haven't chimed in here. #These threads are normally packed with the praises of Eastman owners and fans...

The way I figure it is, it could be any of the following hypotheticals: If I praise the Eastman, I may contribute to the remorse of an owner of an over-hyped, over-priced brand. #That's no good. #On the other hand, if I commit in writing that I don't actually hear that elusive and mysterious quality that others find so obvious, I admit to the world I am severely lacking in ears or talent or taste. I might want to avoid that. Or I might prefer to simply avoid potential angry disputes and subsequent thread lockdowns as have been fairly common. That would be good. Or, I might not want to praise those praise-worthy foreign goods for fear that it may adversely impact local builders.

I have an Eastman 614 and a Rigel A+ Deluxe. #I know they're really apples and oranges, but the Rigel is way louder and pops like a tennis ball off a wall. The Eastman actually plays easier, particularly on the higher frets (I am surprised at that) but the sound is thinner, with only a small amount of tubbiness and bass. #(Observations made with various setups, same string sets on each.)

In defense of the Eastman, it is actually opening up.

The phenomenon I witnessed with Eastmans is, I was able to taste-test and evaluate three "new" 614s at a time. One had a big tone (2005 model, sn had 2 digits, either 5x or 9x) but the neck was not straight, the bridge was way high (no perceptable sinkage, though) and the bridge itself had issues. Another was thin-sounding and hard to play (2007 model). #Another sounded somewhere in between, was straight as an arrow and structurally sound, stayed in tune up the neck, but the scroll binding was kindof unevenly placed and the finish inside the scroll was sparse. It played like a dream. (2006 model)

So from my (limited) Eastman experience, there was a pretty big difference between instruments. #I'm thinking a big factor in a good Eastman is the kind of finishing and setup it gets. (Lots of threads on this.) As if they deliver the raw materials for a good mando for the money, and the buyer finishes the work. #I don't know how typical that is among manufacturers, particularly imports, nor to what degree. #I do know that these weren't consistent like I'm hearing Collings is, that is, computer-aided cutting and whatnot. #Each was unique in its shortcomings and strong points. #I suppose when you do get a hold of a really good one, you can say that it's really a successful custom hand-made instrument.

Note: I also tried a blonde 915 at the same time, granted, it was stiff, but it couldn't compare with the Rigel. #On the other hand, the Rigel didn't sound like the Rigel when I first got it, either.

As I write this, I am reminded of how subjective it all really is. #We were shopping for pianos the other day. #Same thing. #Even if we carried a Steinway 9-footer around with us for comparison, you gotta ask, "What makes them say this Steinway is so much 'better' than this XXXXXXXX ?"

[JEStanek]

I am an Eastman Fan. #My 814 got me an F4 (to me) for thousands less than a genuine F4.

I'll try and answer your question again Caleb. #I believe single person builder X can command a much higher price for several reasons.
1) They need to eat, clothe, provide shelter and health care for themselves and their family.
2) consistency (and consistently improved upon) in their instruments
3) a signature sound
4) a wealth of knowledge built and added to each instrument in how all of the components function together.
5) nuances in the build, little details that take increased time.
6) nuances in tonal range/dynamics that only evolve to a consistent level of instrument production by building many start to finish, taking careful notes and learning their craft.

Finally, if 2-6 don't live up to the price asked, number 1 becomes critical and the builder gets a new job. #I'm amazed by our builders here. #Their artistry, and skill in making these instruments. #I wouldn't trade lives with them for a minute! #I'll stick to $upporting them with my habit.

Many production companies (e.g., Breedlove, Collings, Gibson, Weber) accomplish this (steps 1-6) by having Lloyd Loar like people signing off on each instrument to ensure it meets the parameters and expectations of their Company. #A signature by Kim Breedlove, Bruce Weber, Charlie Derrington, Danny Roberts, the guy at Collings?? means something. #These people started building all on their own and have grown into bigger shops. #It's not just marketing.

Back to the Eastmans, which I like and am proud I owned and would own again, some Pro's use them happily. #I enjoyed mine, it inspired me to play better. #That's enough for me. #Approval from other people who played it, or people who post here isn't that important. #

As for MAS, it may never end. #I think at a certain point, especially when money is not the critical object, the quest isn't necessarily about better, but different, new changing styles and needs. #Paul Prestopino of Peter Paul and Mary plays a Strad o Lin on stage. I'm sure he could have any instrument he wanted, he wants his Strad O Lin, you want yours. #Life is so good.

Jamie