Bat carving on headstock, vietnam, 1922

**BlueMountain** · Jul-15-2008, 2:27pm

The body isn't much, but check out this wonderful headstock with bat: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Unique-vintage-8-string-mandolin-from-1922-LOOK_W0QQitemZ200239296289QQihZ010QQcategoryZ10
179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Unique-....iewItem</a>

Ranks up there with the Brandt and and the Lyon & Healey Style A in coolness of headstock, I think.

**BlueMountain** · Jul-15-2008, 2:30pm

Photo of bat

**BlueMountain** · Jul-15-2008, 2:30pm

More photos from ad. Note the tortoise shell tailpiece cover and picks.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jul-15-2008, 3:01pm

I really question that head badge and the label. Why would they be written in English?

They make some great antique furniture these days in Vietnam.

Here is an interesting blurb on Vietnamese antiques.

I'm guessing it's really not from 1922.

**Gutbucket** · Jul-15-2008, 3:44pm

Herman Munster signature model.

**barefoot** · Jul-15-2008, 3:48pm

Don't know about whether this is authentic, but Vietnamese is written using the roman alphabet (plus some extra little marks--notice the double-dotted i in Hanoi), and the address on the label (what I can see of it) looks like it's written in french, which would make sense for that era, when Vietnam was part of French Indochina.

**mandocaster** · Jul-15-2008, 4:15pm

The ad says it is strung with a new set of J74's

That is probably not doing the mandolin any good.

**Jim Garber** · Jul-15-2008, 11:04pm

The language it is written in is French, not English "Rue de...". Vietnam was a colony of France back then up until the time the US got involved in the 1960s.

This same one was on eBay back in February. In fact there was a discussion of it here.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jul-16-2008, 7:47am

Partial labels are very common in faux antiques. I just doubt the authenticity. The date and the city of origin certainly are convenient when they appear engraved on the headstock inlay. It would be much easier if all the builders had done that.

**brunello97** · Jul-16-2008, 9:13am

All suspicions of origin aside, I like the looks of the general range of French flatbacks. Slightly deeper than the US versions with a bit more ovoid shape. Some day I would like a Gelas, perhaps. The bat-o-lin is just a bit creepy for me. It does appear in nice condition, and I'm tempted to believe it on the old(er) side. If it is a faux, it doesn't appear to me to be a recent one. The shipping costs from Germany aren't all too vampirish considering our UK experience and our less than muscular currency.

Probably best to wear some garlic while playing it, however.

Mick

**mandocaster** · Jul-16-2008, 9:52am

It's hard to imagine someone counterfeiting a totally unknown mandolin. It's not like there is a collector's market for vietnamese mandos.

I want it.

If I hadn't just spent a billion dollars on a Collings MF-5 Varnish I would bid on it.

**brunello97** · Jul-16-2008, 4:12pm

Mitch, I can't recall how much it went for back in the winter, but right now the price is looking good. I'm sure a lot of folks are thinking, "Hmm, nice, but....." Go for it. Bram Stoker would be proud.

Mick

**Jim Garber** · Jul-16-2008, 6:11pm

Originally Posted by (MikeEdgerton @ July 16 2008, 08:47)

I just doubt the authenticity.

Hey, Mike: I am not sure why you are doubtful. It is likely the work of a French luthier or someone trained by one. As Mick noted aside from the bat-stock, the body resembles many of the early 20th century French mandolins. Here is one by the JTL shop Paris from probably the same period as the Vietnamese one.

**jim simpson** · Jul-16-2008, 8:12pm

I think it is marketing genius considering that the new Batman movie is being released.

**MikeEdgerton** · Jul-16-2008, 9:11pm

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ July 16 2008, 19:11)

Hey, Mike: I am not sure why you are doubtful.

I spent the last two weeks shopping for antique furniture that was made in Vietnam in the last year or so. The places were filled with new antiques. By the way, they weren't duplicating an unknown mandolin they were simply creating a saleable antique. With that said this one just has the same look. The other stuff I saw was fine woodworking as well and it did look real old. I just question the headstock. I'm going to guess there will be more dated the same way. Why would a builder building mandolins in 1922 even care if anyone knew what city and year it was built in? See any others marked Paris 1914 or Kalamazoo 1924 or Rome 1933? Too perfect. Show me a newspaper article from 1922 of someone playing one with the same label.

**brunello97** · Jul-16-2008, 10:39pm

Seems like a lot of fuss for $57. The Rome + Date example is a good one, as lots of Catania made mandolins are prominently stamped with their place of origin, and as Plami as hinted, their place of INTENDED origin. Prominent display of their bonafide souvenir value. The fake antique furniture trade (like the fake antique artifact trade) is all over SE Asia. While I'm not in agreement with you, Mike, your request for verifiable evidence might be unachievable--as it might be for a Puglisi from the same era. (We had a strange debate a few months back whether a pochette from their label was real or not.)

This debate becomes quickly moot. For my money it is way too weird to be fake. Given the recent gunk coming out of Vietnamese mando shops, this has too much creative juice to be recent. (I'm revealing my prejudice against current levels of creativity.) I hope Mitch decides to buy it so he can let us know.....

Mick

**MikeEdgerton** · Jul-17-2008, 8:22am

I'll offer another possibility as well. It may be vintage but not as old as it's being made out to be. That is another faux antique trait. I'm not doubting the wierdness or cool factor, I just find the headstock too convenient

**brunello97** · Jul-17-2008, 8:26am

Mike, you might be right on that account. If so, one could only imagine what kind of creepy things might have been in that headstock circle originally. (Okay maybe it is a fruit bat and not a Desmodus rotundus.)

Mick

**Duc Vu** · Jul-17-2008, 8:42am

In 1922 the then nominal king of Viet Nam, Khai Dinh went to the colonial exposition in Marseille. This was deemed a shameful act to the Vietnamese, and a triumph for French propaganda. This mandolin was probably made for the expo.
Bats are considered auspicious in Vietnamese as well as Chinese imagery.
colonial expo in Marseille.

**brunello97** · Jul-17-2008, 1:45pm

Originally Posted by (codeew @ July 17 2008, 09:42)

In 1922 the then nominal king of Viet Nam, Khai Dinh went to the colonial exposition in Marseille. This was deemed a shameful act to the Vietnamese, and a triumph for French propaganda. This mandolin was probably made for the expo.
Bats are considered auspicious in Vietnamese as well as Chinese imagery.
colonial expo in Marseille.

Wow. Interesting stuff. #Do you have more on this?

Mick

**JEStanek** · Jul-25-2008, 7:11am

Bummer, there's been a flurry of activity on this mandolin now and it's beyond what I was willing to spend.

I had even desgined a new avatar in case I won it!

Jamie

Edit: Final sale price of over $500! Amazing.

**mandocaster** · Jul-25-2008, 2:54pm

It went way out of my range

**JEStanek** · Jul-25-2008, 3:22pm

To be honest, my I'll take it price was only $130.00 I really love the heastock but I have no idea how it would sound or what shape it's in. #I have a superb cant top flatback mando I love dearly. #This one would have been for kicks. #I doubt I can get it for my price even with lots of buyers remorse from who ever paid $510 for it.

Maybe I need to make a Joker mandolin...

Jamie
"Some men just want to watch the banjo burn." Alfred Pennyworth (with liberties taken)

**Jim MacDaniel** · Jul-25-2008, 7:02pm

Even considering the closing price on this oddball auction, it seems to me that there would not much financial incentive to create faux antique mandolins with funky headstocks made by French luthiers building in French Indochina in the early 20th century -- that seems just a little too niche of a market to be a viable business model. (However, if this truely is a faux antique, the culprit is in need of a nouveau faux business plan, like perhaps copying certain far more famous and ubiquitous US made mandolins from the same era.

**brunello97** · Jul-25-2008, 7:26pm

As far as being a clever forger goes, it makes good sense NOT to aim after the well known originals. #Far too many people know them well and a forgery would be far too easy to spot-as has been the case with the numerous faux Gibsons that keep getting outed here and probably in other places.

So, if the alleged 'forger' timed the sale (having one 'faux' sale in the spring to set up a 'history' for the item) in time for the release of the Batman movie, then I would say he/she had a pretty great business plan. #(Of course this is a silly suggestion.) #But, if Mike's suspicions are true, a look out over the next 12 months of planned movie releases might set the stage for what types of future 'antique mandolins' we might be seeing show up on ebay. #I'll leave the bad jokes to those much wittier than I around here (you know who you are.....)

Mick