12 string bowlback mandolin?

[beenpickin]

I was thrilled to pick this up this morning, whatever it is. It is 26" long overall and has about a 13-1/4" scale. I assume by remnants of inlay that it is an Oscar Schmidt product. The bridge and nut are currently set up for 8 strings and the tailpiece only has 8 hooks. The inlays and bindings are hurt bad but the top and back have no cracks of note and the neck is strait. Oddly the top is slightly bermed about a 1/4" rather than flat as many I've seen. I tried searching this sight and googling but perhaps my terms were off. Does anyone know what I've got? Thanks, Jeff

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-257F_001.JPG
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-259F_001.JPG
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-260F.JPG
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-261F.JPG
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/pickin/MVC-262F.JPG

[beenpickin]

Well, a little additional searching revealed this is indeed a mandolin identical to the example in this post.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....+string
I sure would like to have his top for the inlays, the bindings I can probably repair.

[Martin Jonas]

These 12-string bowlbacks are really normal mandolins, just with three strings per course instead of two. That was meant to increase volume, but it really creates more trouble than it's worth -- from what you say, a previous owner has already converted it to a conventional 8-string setup and I recommend you stick with that. Bowlbacks tend to be quite delicate, but the 12-strings are a bit more robustly built, and thus less likely to give you structural problems if set up with eight strings.

Incidentally, these 12-string mandolins are also sometimes called "mandriola", especially in the German-speaking countries.

I presume by "bermed" you mean that there is a slight arch to the top. If so, it is normal for bowlbacks to be built with an induced arch for extra stability, sometimes very slight and sometimes very prominent.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

As I have noted elsewhere, another possibility for these is to string the lower courses in octaves, tiple-wise. Makes for an interesting sound.

[beenpickin]

Thank you both for your responces and observations. I do have a nice American Conservatory bowl but as noted in the other thread, the finger board on this instrument is wider and feels more comfortable to me. It may have to join the wall of projects. Does anyone have a suggestion for the pickguard situation short of historic restoration? I would think faux tortious is available but laying in a layer of black epoxy sure would be quicker.

[Jim Garber]

Here's what one should look like. I can't imagine that laying in a layer of black epoxy or mastic would work except to make a big mess. Personally, if you want to play this think I would just replace the pickguard with a flat piece of tortoid plastic -- this is not a seriously historic instrument which requires meticulous restoration.

BTW none of the examples I have in my pic collection have similar bridges. I doubt yours is original either. Perhaps you might just want to make a new one, maybe with a little more elegance.

[kww]

I play a 12-string (a Mexican tricordia) and will say that I can get a lot more volume than an 8-string, and it isn't much more difficult once you get used to it. Whether the difference is worth it or not is a matter of personal taste.

[Bob A]

I was under the impression that the instruments like the two above, with the OS monogram intertwined on the pickguard, were made by Oscar Schmidt. Most of the ones I've seen were 12 string.

[brunello97]

There seems to be a lot of the OS 12 strings still out there in the ether in one state or another. #(I know that is a bad pun.) #Jim, do you know where in NJ their operations were located? #

I've never seen one in person but have always liked that intertwined OS logo inlay. # What are they, acanthus leaf scrolls? #Nice design work.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I assume by remnants of inlay that it is an Oscar Schmidt product.

Bob: Yes, you and Jeff are correct. I guess no one ever corroborated the Oscar Schmidt connection. I don't own any OS instruments but as I recall their labels said Little Ferry, NJ which is near Hackensack and the Teterboro Airport these days.

[brunello97]

Jim, in following your lead I turned up a #reference #to a #Schmidt 'mandolin-harp' supposedly manufactured at 87-101 Ferry St. address in Jersey City. #The street address suggests a possibly larger building/works. #Also references to no. 57 on Ferry St. in the same town. #Not to far from my own childhood ur-playgrounds.

Mick

Turns out I did have a few notes on Schmidt & co. and (not surprisingly) Martin seems quite on track. #Apparently the company had a number of US factories as well as either outright subsidiaries in Europe or else extensive working arrangements. #Multi-stringed instruments: auto harps, zithers, etc. were bread and butter items as well as oddities like the mando-harp and ukelin. #No surprise at all then that 12 string mandolins would emerge from these folks. #The connection back to German mandriolas may be overt or tacit but makes complete sense.

Here is a link to a discussion of a Stella guitar which has a nice overview of the Schmidt company.]

http://www.vguitar.com/features/bran...s.asp?AID=2628

[Jim Garber]

I think my memory was only partially working. Not Little Ferry but Ferry Street in JC. That makes sense. Not sure about the European connections tho. Where did Martin say that OS had European distributors?

[Martin Jonas]

Not that I mind being given credit for clairvoyancy, but I think Mick is confusing Oscar Schmidt with Puntolillo/Majestic -- I have posted in the past about a German connection for Majestic, but I know exactly nothing about OS and am positive that I've never posted anything about them.

Of course, Mick may be right that OS were German-influenced. Their name is certainly German, and 12-strings do appear to be particularly abundant in Germany.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Lyon & Healy also made 12 strings, at least according to the catalogs. I have seen a Gibson A model factory made with 12 strings as well. It is just the OS's that seem to be pretty abundant.

[brunello97]

As usual I'm tangling folks up in my lexicon (Irish and Texan makes a volatile mix.) I was reading into the Vintage Guitar site blurb on Oscar Schmidt, his Saxon heritage and the company's otherwise interest in a range of instruments of multiple strings. Martin didn't explicitly speak of OS and overt German luthier connection. I wound up projecting into Martin's reference of the mandriola relative to the OS 12 strings (we've rarely been mistaken trusting Martin's intuitions.....) Hard not to imagine a fertile design atmosphere in a place where it seems the ukelin was hatched.....

The V-G tale even has OS passing while visiting one of his Euro fabriks. Whether these were in Germany or elsewhere was not mentioned. Perhaps a bit too much speculation on my part.

The Ferry St. location invokes a bygone. pre tunnel, pre GWB city. Before the extensive JC waterfront development even, if one can interpret from the available maps.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Hmmmmm... I wonder if Oscar Schmidt had anything to do with Handel tuners

In any case, I doubt this sheds any new light on the topic but here is the Google map of the area with #87 indicated. Maybe some of us can schedule a field trip to the factory building or at least its location.

[Jim Garber]

Here's the satellite view. Google now has some limited street views which are pretty amazing but they haven't gotten around to Jersey City yet.

[Jim Garber]

A little more useful might be this tidbit from a 1910 publication.

Oscar Schmidt
Manufacturer of Musical Instruments

The Oscar Schmidt business ceased operations many years ago. The description below is from Jersey City Of To-Day, 1910, Walter G. Muirheid, editor.

Oscar Schmidt was born in Germany in 1857, and came to this country at an early age. He engaged in the publishing business in 1882, and continued therein until 1896, when he started the manufacture of musical instruments in a small shop in the two-story repair shop of the North Hudson Street Railway Company on Palisade Avenue in the Hudson City, section. At that time the use of musical instruments was by no means as general as at the present day, but the business increased with the demand until his present factory at 87 Ferry Street is now the largest establishment of its kind in the United States, occupying over 30,000 square feet of floor space.

The output of this factory in string instruments is the largest of any one concern in the world, and the products are sold in every corner of the globe where musical instruments are used. Over a million guitars, zithers and patented musical instruments made in Jersey City by Mr. Schmidt have been sold since he started in business, and he is now the largest manufacturer of instruments at all prices in the United States. His storage yards for the lumber used in the construction of the instruments give some idea by their vastness of the amount of business that he does. He has just patented the Schmidt Pianotina which he will shortly place on the market, and which will be the cheapest and smallest piano in the world. The advance orders show the sales of this instrument will be very large.
The business is not a corporation but is owned personally by Mr. Schmidt, who supervises its management in all its details. He has always had faith in Jersey City real estate, and is to-day the owner of over of $200,000 worth of property.

I wonder if that satellite view shows only a small remnant of the full factory or something that was built after the factory was torn down.

[brunello97]

Interesting image, Jim, from the catalog. #Architectural renderings are notably inaccurate (I admit to carrying on the tradition) but this one does show some interesting things relative to the Google map you posted. #87 Ferry St is shown as a corner lot. #The smaller, one story buildings in the drawing are set back from the street as some of the current line of buildings still hold to. #Whether they are older or newer than the factory is anyone's guess. #Note the three story building with pilasters at Sherman and Ferry. #The 87-101 block is deep enough to have held the larger factory shown, while the block at 57 appears to shallow for. # I'm no architectural historian, but will check at the HABS site, which documented a lot of these type old industrial buildings. # Interestingly there are a couple old factories down the street, eastwards on Ferry that show up in the google map replete with a pilastered structure as the drawing shows. # Looks like a working neighborhood. #

I'm fascinated by all these NY area mandolin works. #If OS owned that much property back then, more records of his business are probably still stored away somewhere.

The street view images would be great to see. #Or a ride over there, like something out of an old Steely Dan song.....


Mick

[Jim Garber]

I'm fascinated by all these NY area mandolin works. If OS owned that much property back then, more records of his business are probably still stored away somewhere.

Yes, I think this is a topic for our field trip, Mick -- after our Portuguese dinner in Newark, possibly.

Not to hijack this trhead, but there are a few other mysteries of the NY area mando makers. According to Mike Holmes of Mugwumps, another large maker was Luigi Ricca who moved his plant also to NJ and had about 200 workers. I would think he must have made instruments for other companies because there are not all that many Ricca labelled mandolins that show up. Galiano was another one we need to look into.

Next time I am in the city library I will check the city directories and see what I can come up with.

[brunello97]

Yes, Jim, that does sound like fun actually. I had a Ricca mandolin for awhile and it was quite elegant, really. I would like to know more about that company (and why if they were employing 200 folks as is said, we don't see more of them than the smattering on ebay or elsewhere.

Nothing at HABS for Schmidt but a lot of views dockside of Hoboken including the east end of Ferry St.

Mick

[brunello97]

Here's an aerial drawing looking westward right up towards JC where the Schmidt factory would have been. #(Portugese dinner in Newark.....? #You know I was born there, Jim.)

Mick

[brunello97]

Jeff, the hijack is temporarily under way. #You have my apologies. #I think a dedicated NY Area Mandolin ('LanticRim?) thread might be the best solution.....

But if you will indulge me a tiny bit further, #here is a very lovely Galiano in what appears to be excellent condition that went unbid at $140. #-or at 75L, just about cover the shipping costs that it would take to get a run-of-the-mill Italian bowl sent over here. #(Or at 94E about the cost of a pleasant Portugese dinner for two in, uh, Lisbon, perhaps.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=001

Mick

[trebleclef528]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MENZENHAUER-SCHMIDT-STYLE-E-12-STRING-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ330242965220QQihZ014QQcategoryZ1 01
79QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here</a> is another example of a 12 string mandolin (Mandriola) currently on Ebay. This on e is by MENZENHAUER AND SCHMIDT, and as far as i know Menzenhauer was a partner of Oscar Scmidt prior to Oscar setting out on his own, the seller states that the mandolin (mandriola) was made in New Jersey.

I've had a few of these "pass through my hands", difficult to play (bowlback version), althought the flat back versions which tend to have a much wider fretboard are easier to play and often produce a good sound especially when..... as Jim mentioned earlier in the topic....the lower courses are strung in octaves.

[brunello97]

Wow. This is fantastic and timely find. The label itself is fascinating. Yet another address for OS on Ferry St. (They slowly moved up the block it seems--or else bought up the block.) The intertwined MS logo also seems a precursor to the OS logo. Do you have further information on the company viz the M + S partnership?

I love the mirrored harp (lyre?) M used on the label.

Great stuff. Thanks for posting.

Mick