Tailpiece...wolftones...grommets

[alt_2ooning]

I found the following links to be of interest regarding the distance of the barre (string bearing bar) of the tailpiece from the backside of the bridge.
http://www.dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_005.htm
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4500

Albeit the links are pertaining to violin however in regards to a 13 7/8 mando scale then using the concept contained in the link then the length of the fourth partial becomes 3.46 inches (3 ½ inches for all intents and purposes) #and hence that distance from the back of the saddle to the barre of the tailpiece.

One further step is to fret the 17th fret on the E, A and D and compare those notes to the notes of #the fourth partial on A string, D string and G string respectively when plucked between the bridge and the tailpiece.

I’ve scaled the dimension of the GAL drawing of #a signed Loar #F5 and discovered the above dimensions to be non applicable.

What I’m asking is any responses regarding your own mandolin(s) if this specification is applicable and if so what bridge is installed on your mando.

My guess would be that wolftones would not be evident nor would there be a need for wolftone suppressors such as grommets …..and furthermore my guess would be that the tonal timbre #is enhanced with 4th partial overtones being in sympathetic vibration with their open string counterparts ....1st,2nd,4th partials of the 4th partials between the bridge and tailpiece #would be inconsequential since their frequency range would be too high.

The other options to attain the above specs would be a Benedetto style tailpiece with an adjustable gut hanger , a custom made cast #bridge to suit the conditions or a lower bout length (from tailblock to the backface of a bridge) along the longitudinal axis #to accommodate a predetermined bridge for any future design/build.

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated .
Mike

[sunburst]

I thought about that stuff when I was thinking of designing a tailpiece, but decided it wasn't practical for several reasons. For example; violins don't normally have frets so no compensation is needed at the bridge, so the top of the bridge is straight across, so a straight across barre is fine on the tailpiece of a violin. Mandolin bridges are often compensated, and the width of the "saddle" is not consistent from bridge to bridge (it's normally 1.1mm thick on violins). A mandolin tailpiece that would provide a "proper" length from the back of the saddle to the barre, like on a violin, would require separate adjustments for each string coarse in order to accommodate different bridges.
Also, mandolin players, especially Bluegrass mandolin players often "chop" chords and a lot of them don't like to hear the after length of the strings ringing after their chop chords regardless of what notes those strings are ringing.

It wouldn't be too hard to make a bridge and tailpiece combination for a mandolin that would provide a 3.469" afterlength, but a bridge change by the owner would likely change the length, unless it was adjustable (for each string), and there's no established standard for mandolin after length for the set up tec to reference, and after all, a lot of Bluegrass players are going to damp the after length with their method of choice anyway.

So anyway, in the interest of simplicity and lack of moving parts, and with the understanding that mandolin dimensions are not standardized like violins, I made my tailpiece a length that I considered aesthetically appropriate rather than try for a specific string length behind the bridge.

[Bill Halsey]

Apparently L&H thought there was something to it -- note the individual spacing of the string frets on the t'pc. (I have no opinion -- just the messenger):

[Willie]

Hasn`t anyone ever given any thought to using different gauges of strings and do away with the compensated bridge...I`m not as smart as a fifth grader so I wouldn`t know if the strings should be smaller or larger to allow the bridge saddle to be straight as it was many years ago on the oval hole mandolins...After all of these years I`m sure someone has thought about it so there must be more to it that that...Willie

[sunburst]

Yeah, I guess we have to say there's more to it than that. It's the frets that are the real problem with intonation. Violins don't have them, so the player is free to find the notes on the fingerboard wherever they are with a straight-across bridge. (Violin players are also free to play in equal temperament or "just intonation" to suit the situation.)
Mandolins are particularly difficult, among fretted instruments, to set up to play really well in tune for several reasons, including:
-The short scale length. Longer strings make it easier to get things in tune.
-Mandolins are tuned in 5ths. The larger intervals between string courses (compared to 4ths and 3rds on guitars and such) mean the string gauges have to be quite a bit different to keep string tension relatively even.

Relatively even string tension is important to players for a consistent feel, and perhaps it is important for an even sound in a mandolin. Evenly tensioned strings, tuned in 5ths, require different string gauges, and different string gauges require different compensation to play in tune, thus the compensated bridge came to be.

[alt_2ooning]

A mandolin tailpiece that would provide a "proper" length from the back of the saddle to the barre, like on a violin, would require separate adjustments for each string coarse in order to accommodate different bridges.

Thanks for spotting that John…… I missed that detail….thanks again for #providing the rationale as to why you felt going the route I proposed on a copy Loar F5 was impractical #as chop chords are bread and butter chords of the F5 #therefor complicating the tonal qualities/added sustain of overtones #could be detrimental regarding #the bluegrass sound. The photo that Bill posted (BTW thanks ) is that of an L&H classical mandolin. ….perhaps then the idea might make sense in an oval hole mando.

John could you please supply #the measurement from the inside face of the mounting bracket of your custom tailpiece to the bearing surfaces of the strings on exiting the tailpiece. Modifying ( + or - a ¼ #inch ) #the GAL specs to accommodate your tailpiece would be an option to consider.
http://www.hamlettinstruments.com/in...etail.php?ID=4

…..lest I go with an ebony tailpiece similar to
http://www.oldtimemandolin.com/5-05-LH.html

Thanks for the interest and input .

Mike

[Bill Snyder]

... The photo that Bill posted (BTW thanks ) is that of an L&H classical mandolin. ….

Weren't the F-5's classical mandolins before they were bluegrass mandolins?

[sunburst]

John could you please supply the measurement from the inside face of the mounting bracket of your custom tailpiece to the bearing surfaces of the strings on exiting the tailpiece.

I just measured one to be 2 1/8", but that might vary slightly depending on when it was made.

[alt_2ooning]

Billbows
Apparently L&H thought there was something to it -- note the individual spacing of the string frets on the t'pc. (I have no opinion -- just the messenger):

Bill thanks for posting the pic . If you have access to the mando of the #picture you posted (uncertain if it is your mando) #it would be of great interest if you could provide the scale length and the distance from the back of the saddle to the corresponding string fret in the tailpiece. Either way that information #would confirm/refute the concept of the saddle to tailpiece distance being/not being the fourth partial.

sunburst
I just measured one to be 2 1/8", but that might vary slightly depending on when it was made.

Thanks John, that puts your custom designed tailpiece very close to that + - ¼ inch modification factor to the GAL F5 drwg.

Mike

[Bill Halsey]

This is a long-scale Style A, ~6.855" nut to ctr. 12th fret. Measurements in inches between contact points, nut to bridge/bridge to t'pc. frets:
E: 13.79/3.35
A: 13.88/3.36
D: 13.84/3.24
G: 13.95/3.18

Pitches, scale/br.- t'pc.:
E5/F7-25c
A5/A#7-20c
D4/D#6+10c
G3/A5+25c

The bridge is quite skewed to produce accurate octaves. It is strung with the J62 set (10-14-24-34), but it's a bit sleepy. I intend to go to the GHS PF250 (11-16-24-38), which may affect bridge placement and the above figures.

[billhay4]

Don't fanned frets eliminate the need for compensated bridges? If so, what do they do about the distance from bridge to tailpiece?
Bill

[alt_2ooning]

Billbows Posted: May 30 2008, 16:59
This is a long-scale Style A, ~6.855" nut to ctr. 12th fret. Measurements in inches between contact points, nut to bridge/bridge to t'pc. frets:
E: 13.79/3.35
A: 13.88/3.36
D: 13.84/3.24
G: 13.95/3.18

Pitches, scale/br.- t'pc.:
E5/F7-25c
A5/A#7-20c
D4/D#6+10c
G3/A5+25c #

Many thanks for posting that info Bill. It appears as though the E & A 4th partials for the designed scale of your L&H are within minus #60 thou…….the pitch variable of + and - 25 c aligns with #the concept of the #distance between bridge and tailpiece frets as the fourth partial (or very near to it). Very interesting.

Mike

[Paul Hostetter]

Gee whiz, I have never seen a thread with so many misunderstood issues floated as on this one. No, fanned frets don't correct intonation. No, changing string gauges won't fix that either. No, bluegrass didn't exist before classical music. No, the L&H tailpiece accomplished nothing on a practical level. No, there is no "proper" length from the back of the saddle to the barre, like on a violin. No, grommets have nothing whatsoever to do with wolftones because wolftones don't even occur on fretted instruments. Yikes.

[Dave Hanson]

Ah, someone with common sense at last.

Dave H

[david blair]

I notice on my mandolin that the overtones are influenced by the distance from the tailpiece to the saddle, Mine has an ebony tailpiece, and is interesting because it is angled so the "afterlength" of the G strings are shortest and the E strings longest. Curious.
If the bridge is out of place the overtones don't sound just right either, and a chop chord has an ugly decay. When in tune the mandolin actually sounds quieter after the strum/chop. The ugly dissonant ring sound goes away and that hollow thud comes back.

[Paul Hostetter]

It's curious because it's the opposite of the way it's usually done, but trusting your own ears based on your own evidence is always the part that matters.





There's a commonplace in the violin world that the afterlength should be 1/6th of the vibrating string length, and most people I know who observe it (including myself) don't really believe it, because the audial corroboration just isn't there, but do it anyway. Sorta.