Mandolins from Iriland

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-26-2004, 12:50pm

I'm new to the Celtic world of mandolin playing and I notice there is many rules involved. One of the rules is that The A type of mandolin seems to be the mandolin of prefered. I'm no expert but in Iriland when many of the standard song were written, didn't most of the players use round back mandolins? It's just that the folks running the seiseins I've gone to have so many rules like no sheet music, no guitars, must play the song perfect note for note ect. Shouldn't the mandolins be traditional also? I would just like to know what the real deal is. Thank you very much, Nick

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-26-2004, 1:13pm

Sorry, #Ireland. #

**Jim Garber** · Jun-26-2004, 1:45pm

Well, I am no expert on irish music but I would venture to gues that the mandoilin wasn't used at all in Irish music until much much later. In fact the guitar or bouzouki wasn't used either.

Any historians?

Jim

**whistler** · Jun-26-2004, 8:36pm

Mandolins were being used occasionally in Ireland in the ceili bands of the 1930s, along with banjos, saxophones and other 'non-traditional' instruments. The type of mandolin being used was whatever was available at the time - the banjo mandolin was no doubt favoured for its volume, since electric amplification was more the exception than the rule in those days. The mandolin only really started to be taken seriously as a melody instrument in Irish Traditional Music in the late 1960s, partly due to the influence of bluegrass from America, partly riding on the back of the popularity of the Tenor Banjo (in no small part thanks to Barney McKenna of The Dubliners).

Consequently, being a relative newcomer to the tradition, there is no such thing as the 'correct' type of mandolin for Irish music. Three years ago, I went to watch the Senior All Ireland mandolin competition at the Fleadh in Listowel. As I remember it, the majority of the players were using F-style instruments - and one of them played a bowl-back. But, of mandolin players I have seen in sessions, most use, loosely speaking, A-style instruments (I am not a fan of that terminology), with a central soundhole. A good many players prefer flat-topped (i.e. not carved) instruments to the Gibson type true A-models.

Personally, I have never liked the tone of the Gibson F-models for Irish music, fine instruments though they may be. I have tried playing on bowl-backs also, and I find them somehow unresponsive to the fast melodic runs and strong rhythmic pulse of Irish music - and fiendishly difficult to keep hold of.

I would recommend a flat-topped, flat backed instrument, but that's just me. Shop around, find what you like and, whatever you do, don't listen to me.

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-27-2004, 10:12am

Thank you very much for your answer. #I am learning that there seems to be two main kinds of Irish music: #Traditional and pub folk fun music where there is much singing. It seems to me that the tradtional has many rules (play song only 3 times, do not improvise ect.) #while the folk type songs can be played anyway you like. # Much to learn! # Nick

**Unseen122** · Jun-27-2004, 3:07pm

It all has to do with the tone of the instrument an A will give you a brighter sweeter tone that is why it is used in ITM (irish Traditional Music). The F style have too much chop and bark that is not really good for ITM. The Flat top is the most "accepted" for the style of music along with A style in general Oval hole Fs aren't too bad but As are better (this is for the style of course). Also Banolins are too loud and harsh along with Resomandos (I made that word up) are the same.

**steve V. johnson** · Jun-27-2004, 4:26pm

I'm really sorry to learn that you have sessions around with such stringent "rules". I think that that sucks, and Session Cops suck too.

Mostly (in my experience) Session Cops are very insecure about their own playing, and in general, their place on the planet, too. So I guess we just need to be kind and patient with them, and just focus on the joy and community in the music.

But, since that's what you have in your area, have fun and don't take the Paddy Ashcrofts too seriously!!

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-27-2004, 4:31pm

I hear what you are saying but I've played and owned some pretty nice sounding A types that rival the F type anytime. The 85 Givins I owned and the 23 Gibson A I now own have huge sound. Also you can hold back on the F type. I think what is really going on is that the A style just looks more the part. And if you are hooked up to a mic, it really does not matter anyway. A friend of mine in a bluegrass has a flatiron f type that sounds real week but he said it just does not matter because he is always on the mic. I think it is all about tradition and thats just fine. Nick

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-27-2004, 4:43pm

I like to have fun when I play and I want to learn but at the seision I went to no one played anything because only the hosts knew the songs note for note so we could not play anything. #One nice mady who is in our city mandolin orchestra sat down and set up a music stand and sheet music and the hosts told her right away that sheet music was not allowed . #She was shocked and left early. #One lady asked if she could bring her guitar and the host said no, #not allowed! #So all seven of us just sat there for two hours and watched the two hosts play. #They were very good and played their songs perfect note for note and played the songs no more than the required 3 times! # Nick

**keithd** · Jun-27-2004, 5:37pm

Nick,

I've been working on Irish mandolin for almost 2 years now, and I'm fairly new to session playing. I can imagine your frustration with a rigid, humorless, or less than welcoming session leader. The other side of the coin is a session leader who won't keep the music on topic; that is, Irish dance tunes, with breaks for Irish songs. That is, after all, what an Irish Pub Session is.

There are some slow sessions in the San Francisco Bay Area that are very welcoming and supportive of newcomers, allow sheet music, and provide pretty amazing web support, with sheet music and midi files for their core tunes list. This can be tedious sometimes too, but it serves a great purpose. I have found regular sessions here also welcoming but, alas, my playing is not that fast yet, and my list of tunes still a bit short.

One of the amazing things about a regular session is the sponteneity of tune choices and combinations from an ever growing group of thousands. I've been to sessions (as a lister mind you) that went on for 4-5 hours without ever repeating a tune. Hopefully you can find a more welcoming session in your area - keep looking!

Check out this link to a useful piece on session ettiquette: http://pweb.jps.net/~jgilder/seisiun.html

As for instruments, I've seen all kinds at sessions around here; I've never sensed any kind of prejudice in that regard. In my own playing I have gone from a Mid-Mo M-11 (all mahogany, round hole) flat-top, to a carved top Martin 2-15 (which has f-holes), to my current Gibson A-2 (carved, oval hole). It's true that I do like the styling of the Gibson, but it also has more the tone I'm after; it's dryer, louder, and punchier that the others.

Keith

**Keith Miller** · Jun-27-2004, 7:43pm

Nick,
there is only 1 way to deal with a session like that, get up and leave the 'hosts' will soon get fed up playing to themselves.

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-27-2004, 9:27pm

Thanks Keith. Nick

**Unseen122** · Jun-27-2004, 9:42pm

Anonther way is to walk outside and the rest of you play your session out there.

**Nick Triesch** · Jun-27-2004, 9:42pm

Does anyone know what I'm talking about when I say there is two kinds of Irish pub music? I've been to fun bars where groups would sing and play all kinds of folk and fun music and everyone would have a blast. And drink beer! I also notice they use every kind of instrument from guitars to mandolins to the tin whistle. Thats the kind of music I would like to learn and get away from bluegrass for a while. Nick

**Unseen122** · Jun-27-2004, 9:48pm

To get technical that would classify as "folk" music not "tradidtional" the difference is they play more along the lines of "Molly Malone" and "Danny Boy" these being folk songs Traditional would be more like "The Kesh" and "St. Anne's Reel" (trad version not bluegrass) these being tunes the second is a session the first is well it doesn't have a name it is just a bunch o' drunks playin' instruments this just breaks out it is not planned and don't excpect to see that many.

**Bren** · Jun-28-2004, 3:47am

Irish music is great and pub sessions are great fun but don't fall into the trap of thinking that pub sessions are unique to Irish music or vice versa. Otherwise you might miss out on a whole world of Scottish, Shetland and other music. Shetland in particular has a great proportion of mandolin players.

Those who want to rigidly control the manner of playing and the type of music that is played are perhaps not so well suited to pub sessions. However if that is your only local session, you have my sympathy. Your options are either to attend regularly and hope that with like-minded players you can influence the session to develop in a less restrictive way, or start an alternative session, perhaps with other folk you meet at the first one.

As for types of mandos to use - when playing unamplified, volume is #1 consideration for a mandolin, so I would say a good resophonic mando is as good a choice as any in a session context.

**Aidan Crossey** · Jun-28-2004, 6:15am

Mandocat ...

I'm sorry if you found your first exposure to traditional Irish music to be a tad unfulfilling. I don't know how the session-hosts put themselves across. However it's not surprising that they run their session in the way that they do.

Many trad musicians find any form of backing instrument to be anathema and therefore quite a few sessions have a (sometimes unspoken) bar on guitars and the like.

Many sessions will also frown on sheet music, for any number of reasons. The first is that a proper session is not about learning, it's about playing. Sure, you might pick up the odd tune here and there. But learning's done someplace else (your bedroom, garden shed, a formal class).

Secondly, the essence of the session is a degree of spontaneity. Sure, most of us will play pretty much the same sets from week to week. But players with a large repertoire like to keep their options open, to vary their sets, to go with whatever choices spontaneously suggest themselves. Tunebooks aren't arranged like this! By the time the "reader" recognises the tune (or is told its name), locates the tune and then starts to play, the player who has introduced the tune is likely to be ready to move on to the next one.

Finally, reading music straight from the page and playing it is - in almost every case - not anywhere near as interesting as having personalised a tune. In a session I play with, one of our number is a fluent sight-reader. But when playing an unknown tune, his approach is purely mechanical; he plays all the right notes in the right order at the right speed, but there's no personalisation. With tunes that he knows, which don't require access to the dots, it's a different story; fluent, individualised, nicely-ornamented playing.

Some people may find sessions a bit rule-bound. I would argue that the only way to ensure reasonable quality when a large number of instruments are involved is to have rules that everyone buys into and then stick to them pretty rigidly. When you've internalised the rules, then you can, on ocasion and to very good effect, subvert them. But you need to know what you're doing, why you're doing it and be reasonably confident that you'll have the support of other players in doing it!

As for mandolins, much of what Whistler says is very apt. The mandolin is not considered a traditional instrument - this is a pretty limited club, comprising (if you're an absolute hardliner) the fiddle, pipes, whistle, harp and flute with the possible addition (if you're less hardline) of piano, bodhran and melodeons/concertinas. The reality is that the pool of "acceptable" instruments has increased over the years to take in guitars, mando-family instruments, piano accordions, you name it! However some sessionistas will, as I've pointed out above, baulk at the inclusion of certain instruments and if that's the way that they want their session to sound, then that is their choice. Such a choice has consequences, of course, but if they're prepared to live with those consequences, then the session will run as they see fit.

As for the "other" type of gathering that you talk about, this is what I would have called a "come-all-ye", a singsong or a hooley. A session - which is almost always tune-oriented - can sometimes degenerate into the other beast, particularly when the drink's been taken and the hour is late. However most trad musicians would rather pack up than get involved in the paddywhackery that comes in tow with such shenanigans! Personally I think there's a place for both and I've been as responsible as the next man for indulging in (nay, leading!) the odd drink-fuelled come-all-ye. However, given the choice, nine times out of ten I'd opt for a well-disciplined session over a come-all-ye!

**steve V. johnson** · Jun-28-2004, 6:31am

Originally Posted by (mandocat @ June 27 2004, 17:43)

I like to have fun when I play and I want to learn but at the seision I went to no one played anything because only the hosts knew the songs note for note so we could not play anything. One nice mady who is in our city mandolin orchestra sat down and set up a music stand and sheet music and the hosts told her right away that sheet music was not allowed . She was shocked and left early. One lady asked if she could bring her guitar and the host said no, not allowed! So all seven of us just sat there for two hours and watched the two hosts play. They were very good and played their songs perfect note for note and played the songs no more than the required 3 times! Nick:)

[QUOTE]

The last time I was in a situation like this (not nearly as tight as this, tho), the folks who were left out got up at a break and organized another time and place to meet and play and help each other learn the tunes!

It's nice to be a guest at a great performance, but ...

<GG>

I'd take a slight exception to Aidan's assertion that 'sessions are for playing, not learning,' just because at the great majority of sessions I've attended, some part of the time someone was learning a line, an A-part, an ornament, the history of a tune, etc. These things are shared in the process.

It's true that "slow sessions" are specifically for learning and regular sessions are better if they don't have to stop for major teaching, but a lot of times some folks will step away to go over something and then come back to the circle.

Many session players have been VERY generous in teaching me stuff in sessions, especially in Ireland.

stv

**Aidan Crossey** · Jun-28-2004, 7:06am

You're right stv, of course, that *some* learning takes place in the session environment. What I was trying to point out is that a fluent session may not be able to accommodate "learners" or the "dot-dependent" easily. Many players will, as you've pointed out, take the time to share learning points with other players.

But if a session contains fairly seasoned players with large repertoires and the ability to play at a fair lick and a shared vision of the music, then those players may not be able to make space for the newcomer without radically altering the compexion of the session.

Therefore the golden rule is that any given session is as it is. The newcomer adapts to the session as he/she finds it, not the other way round.

**POB** · Jun-28-2004, 7:50am

Excellent posts from Aidan.

I guess the trick is to find a session where the general standard of playing isn't any more than a few notches above (or below) your own. I could be wrong, but I don't think a jazz jam or a bluegrass jam where the musicians were of a very high standard would necessarily be hugely enthusiastic if I sat in with the small handful of standards from those genres that I sort of know.

That said, anyone "hosting" a session should at least be polite and diplomatic to others.

**Aidan Crossey** · Jun-28-2004, 8:55am

Pádraig ...

"...That said, anyone "hosting" a session should at least be polite and diplomatic to others."

Indeed! #Although it can be difficult to articulate what the session is "about", e.g. what styles predominate, what "level" the players are at, whether the session favours accompaniment or not, etc., it is worth the effort.

I've been wrong-footed on many occasions, blithely joining a session and realising that I'm in the midst of players who are way more advanced than I am. #On other occasions I've sat in on what have been advertised as "sessions" that have turned out to be singarounds. #In such cases, I've felt uncomfortable and embarrassed and so I do sympathise with the frustrations of newcomers who find that a session which they have joined has appeared rule-bound or exclusive (whereas it may simply be being true unto itself and guarding its character jealously).

Often there are a lot of assumptions made in the session-world, a lot of talk behind backs and suppressed irritation ... #A bit more talking would sometimes help us through that!

**POB** · Jun-28-2004, 9:14am

Originally Posted by (Aidan Crossey @ June 28 2004, 14:55)

... a lot of talk behind backs and suppressed irritation ... #A bit more talking would sometimes help us through that!

Very true. I think it's a lot better to politely explain the position to someone who's not lying in with the flow of the session, rather than let the annoyance fester and manifest itself an hour later in a frustrated outburst.

Doesn't always work though - I once had to (politely and diplomatically, of course!) explain to a guy who sat in with a pair of spoons that he wasn't keeping time with the music at all and it just wasn't working. Despite my best efforts at being friendly and polite, he threw down the spoons and stormed out roaring at me "What are you - a f***ing Orangeman?!!!" I hadn't realised that an aversion to bad spoon playing was a hallmark of the Ulster Scots tradition.