Mandolins vs violins

[gnelson651]

So this has some mandolin discussion in it but I'm curious why the sound/tone difference between two mandolins about $1200 apart is better than two violins in the same range.

As a graduation present, my wife and I will be giving my daughter $2,000 to buy a new violin. She's had her student model we bought her when she started in 6th grade. It was about $600 for the whole set up.

Daughter has been bringing home voilins from a local music store to demostrate and compare in the $2,000 range. She's A/B'd each against each other and than to her own student model. While there is some improvement in the sound between the new higher price violin vs the student modestly priced violin, its not by much.

Now contrast this to my mandoln experince in A/Bing different models. Last summer while in California, I stopped off at Buffalo Bros and played their wall of mandolins. My daughter and I both played to each other to compare. I have to say that a basic Collins MT for about $2,000 was excellent sounding and was head and shoulders above an Eastman in tone and sound. (Im using Eastman because its close to the quality and price of a good student pac-rim violin).

Yet, I'm not hearing this same large difference between the various violins my daughter has brought home in the same $1,200 difference against her student model. The sound/tone difference is small.

Are violins that much different than mandolins in the tone department? Do you have to go to a higher price to get a better separation and superior tone?

[Joel Spaulding]

My hands-on violin knowledge is ZERO - but am curious - Would the student model violin that was purchased 6 years ago (6th -12th grade ~ 6 years) still be in the same price range or is it possible that the scale of violin prices has slid upwards?

You might not see as much difference between mandos in different price ranges depending on the manufacturers selected for comparison. The MT you tried might (and probably does) sound every bit as good as many instruments in the $3K - 5K range.

So now that I have completely and non-succinctly not answered your question, let me say that your signature line is superb!

Peace,

Joel

[Michael Lewis]

Glen, though there are some exceptions, generally good tone starts about $5000. but is not guaranteed at that price. There are some very good instruments coming from China if you are looking for a classical violin (not the cheap "student" grade junk) but I would talk with Frank Daniels of boise ID. He calls his business Frank's Fiddles, and has an amazing cadre of users because of the tone he gets. Another gifted maker is Jon Franke of Oregon, who is more in the classical camp.

[Stephen Perry]

Two very key aspects are the player and the setup. Setup can bring much more out of a violin than with the mandolin. And the player. Some people really don't sound any different on instruments twice the price. They aren't using the increased performance envelope that should be there. Probably other factors I can't think of this early.

[Brandon Flynn]

This is why I won't get into the bowed instruments, they are much too expensive. I would love to learn some violin, but a good violin is way to pricey. You can buy about 10 loars for the price of one Stradavarius. Does anyone know why they are more expensive? Are they harder to make than mandolins?

[Jonathan Peck]

The dealer I visited recommended the pac rim instruments over the older german made instruments from the 20's and 30's in that price range. In the next price range of 10K, there are a number of current builders in the US of A making very good instruments. We wound up with one made by Nathaniel Rowan from Brooklyn. My daughter also plays one of his 1/2 size student violins. They are both excellent instruments IMHO which was based on demoing instruments up to 100K for a comparison.



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[TomTyrrell]

Then, after you get the new violin you need a new bow. Some of those bows cost more than a whole horse!

[dcc]

This is why I won't get into the bowed instruments, they are much too expensive. I would love to learn some violin, but a good violin is way to pricey. You can buy about 10 loars for the price of one Stradavarius. Does anyone know why they are more expensive? Are they harder to make than mandolins?

Actually, depending on which stradivarius (some are better than others), you can buy more than 10 Loars

Nice violins (especially the higher end ones you might use in a classical context) are quite a bit more different from each other in feel and tone than mandolins. When you find a violin that fits your hands and style, you marry it. There isn't really a huge horse trading MAS phenomenon amongst violinists. (Don't know if there's one among fiddlers, but I imagine it's similar.)

[dcc]

Yet, I'm not hearing this same large difference between the various violins my daughter has brought home in the same $1,200 difference against her student model. The sound/tone difference is small.

Are violins that much different than mandolins in the tone department? Do you have to go to a higher price to get a better separation and superior tone?

It's possible to get lucky and find a violin with really nice tone, but somewhat funky dimensions, so dealers will price it lower. You can also find really good deals from private parties, but it can be rather tiresome to shop around that way. $2,000 is still firmly in the student range for violins, unfortunately.

I know this will sound a bit odd, but you can probably get quite a bit bigger bang for your buck, tone-wise, with a really NICE bow. It is a thought that can make a mandolinist choke on his corn flakes since an expensive pick is $25-50, but bows can cost as much as instruments. Fine bow making is a bit of a magical art. Maybe have your daughter A/B some nice pernambucco bows, too. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Oh, one more thing: if your daughter is testing out those nicer violins with the same bow that came with the $600 outfit, odds are quite good there's not enough bow there to pull out the contrast in instruments.

[Rick Schmidlin]

Contact David Bromberg in Baltimore, he has a violin shop and had at one time three Loars.

[Bob A]

Bromberg's shop is in Delaware.

Aside from bow issues, it's not uncommon for a student violinist to be basically unable adequately to evaluate an instrument that mey be significantly better than his/her current instrument. While the instrument may well be capable of a broad range of tonality, the student may not be capable of extracting it.

Regarding bows: it's generally felt that one ought to first select a violin, then get a bow that works well with the instrument. A general rule of thumb is that a bow should run about a third of the cost of the violin.

Arcos Brasil makes a line of pernambuco bows that are available in the $700 range that are really quite nice for the money.

In our household we have violins ranging from about 300 to about 5K; oddly enough, the 300 ebay violin seems to be preferred over many of the others. But it was just luck. The thing is ugly as a mud fence.

[Santiago]

I think you get the best bang for the buck with a used intrument. A knowledgeable violin dealer will be able to present you with real options in your price range. My experience with student violins is that a good many of them would make fine kindling, but a vast majority of students deserve them. For a student who has proven themselves to be willing to make the time commitment, there are reasonable options among used instruments without having to break into the professional realm of expense.

[allenhopkins]

A hypothesis, which the knowledgeable among you should feel free to shoot full of holes:

Violins don't vary as much because they're not as different in terms of their construction. #The basic dimensions, materials, and construction patterns of violins were pretty much established more than a century ago. #Of course there are exceptions, but you won't see the difference in violin shapes, sizes (talking full-size instruments -- I know there are many smaller sizes made for children), bracing, finishes etc., that you do in mandolins. #The main thing you're paying the extra bucks for is better handwork, more care in details, and. really, subtleties, when you get above the real "entry level."

You won't see two standard, classical violins as different as a Breedlove is from a Weber, or as a Gibson is from a Rigel or a Phoenix. Different models of mandolin may be constructed from different woods, have different bracing systems, different size bodies, different neck attachments, differently sized and placed soundholes. While I'm sure you can locate violins that vary widely from the accepted pattern, you won't find them in orchestras, and I doubt that Glenn's daughter has brought home such a "maverick" to test drive.

Stradivarius violins are generally acknowledged to be "the best ever made." #There have been many articles in scientific and luthiery publications, trying to establish why this is true. #They were made in the 18th century, and most have been re-necked to accommodate the longer scale that is the violin standard today. #They bring millions of dollars when sold, and many are now owned by institutions or syndicates who rent or loan them to performers. #Lloyd Loar F-5's are around 85 years old -- mere infants in comparison -- and, while undoubtedly pricey, are within the reach of the determined musician or collector.

My band shared a concert once with a cellist, who had an 18th century Italian instrument that she valued at $350,000, quite a bit beyond what any Loar, other than maybe Bill Monroe's, would ever bring. #I'd never heard of the maker, but I assume he was one of the esteemed builders of cellos.

So it might well be that the actual difference in construction and materials between a $600 and a $2,000 violin, is less than the difference between mandolins of similar prices. #I applaud Glenn's daughter for "A/B-ing" all her potential purchases, because I've always felt that the differences among individual instruments are more significant than the differences between "classes," brands or price ranges. #And I second the notion that the bow can be as important in determining violin sound, as the instrument itself.

[earthsave]

I was stunned at how much a violin player can pay for a bow. Our fiddler's bow, which had been repaired, snapped during practice. She had insurance that covered it and got a nice replacement. Her bow cost more than my mandolin. I forget how many thousands it cost.

[dcc]

If you want to take a road trip to LA, you might try Robert Cauer. Last I heard, they offer a credit of 100% of your purchase price if you want to upgrade to a nicer instrument down the road.

You will probably get a better violin for your money from a violin-family dealer, or a private party, rather than a general purpose music store.

[usqebach]

Actually, being a fairly serious fiddler who has thrown more money away on BAD violin acquisitions than I have made GOOD mandolin purchases, I might have a little hard-earned knowledge to share.

In contrast to Allen, I actually believe (and find it quite interesting) that there is significantly greater tonal difference in virtually identical looking violins than in radically different mandolin models. It is virtually impossible to discern how an instrument will sound based on its appearance, and oftentimes the shiniest, prettiest $600 student model will sound like it has a pair of sweatpants stuffed inside it. Also, violinmakers put even more emphasis into wood selection, but they don't always go with the flashiest looking quilts, stripes, etc. One of my best fiddles was made from very plain maple reclaimed from an old covered bridge in New Hampshire, but like a DOLT I swapped it for one with a prettier flamey striped back (the plain one was later sold for 5k on ebay, almost 10x what I paid for it!).

At the 2k range, your daughter should be able to acquire an instrument that ought to take her well into the collegiate level, should she be so inclined. There is a monumental difference in the $600 "entry level" instrument (all shiny varnish and green wood) sold in your local music store and the $1-2k models sold in string specific stores. However, the retail shops do have a significant built in margin in the lower level instruments. It is worth it if you are getting knowledgeable advice and a good set-up. Just be sure you shop around. Vegas should be a large enough town to have at least a couple serious strings shops.

As a "standard" off which to judge, I believe the Eastman line in that price range to be quite good, and I'd be happy playing the Doutsch, and Klier lines that come from them. I would suggest you contact Steve Perry at Giannaviolins (a cafe member, NFI on my part) who is an expert at set-up, has a return and trade-up policy, and always dealt fairly with me. Although I would warn you that Steve is a nuclear engineer and attorney as well as a luthier, so the conversations get a bit one-sided in a hurry. (Did ya ever meet some people who are just operating on a different plane than the rest of us - he and my dad are like that!) He is, however, spot on in his assessments, including the one 3 years ago when he told me to stop wasting my time on the fiddle and take up this funny looking little 8-string guitar!

Also, the one thing I haven't heard mention is the importance of playability. It took me several bad purchases based purely on tone to realize that the instrument has to be comfortable to play, and be able to practice for a couple of hours at a time. Make sure your daughter spends a whole lot of practice time on an instrument before purchase, not just falling in love with it in the store.

Everybody is right on about the bows!

Hope this helps a bit.

[TomTyrrell]

A few years ago a co-worker's daughter got into one of the big name music schools. He was OK with that (they had the tuition and living expenses covered) until he found out they were going to have to get his daughter a better violin and bow. The bow she ended up with cost over $3,000, he never said how much the violin cost.

The first thing she did when she graduated was get a better violin and bow. What she spent would buy a house in many areas of our country.

[GTison]

I've always thought of the violin business as a buyer beware business. More-so than in the relatively small mandolin world. Things don't seem to be as cut and dried as in the mandolin world regarding the instrument. Prices don't reflect looks so much. Every step seems to take some training. Like looking at a scroll and telling how "fine" it is. Mysterious stuff here to the untrained. And tone is like you say here what can the player get out of the violin. If it were me I'd look for a used one.
I lucked into what could be a great violin. But to be considered for a classical market would need repairs. When sent to Chicago to an appraiser he sent it to a repairman who said to bring it up to standards would take about $4000 ! I just said send it back, not at this time, thankyouverymuch. I still have it. What's the value of a beat up old fiddle that if you poured thousands into may or may not be worth even more depending on the market trends for my fiddle? Maybe it's worth more than $20,000 like I see in the shops on line for this makers violins, or maybe not worth anything because no one in this price range would purchase it because of the violin's problems.
I can understand the mandolin market somewhat. Hey you got an '21 F4 all original-price $6000. F4 with lots of problems but plays well, $3000. I can get that.

Good luck finding an instrument that suits your daughter. If she's going to a music college see what her future teachers would advise. But beware the teachers 'recommended by' commission.

[OregonMike]

A $600 dollar student instrument that has been played and played may still sound better than a $2000 instrument and these costs are really close together in the violin world. Her $2000 will go a lot further if she buys direct from another player.

I'd set aside $750 of that $2000 for a better bow...

Oh, one more thing: if your daughter is testing out those nicer violins with the same bow that came with the $600 outfit, odds are quite good there's not enough bow there to pull out the contrast in instruments.

[Santiago]

I agree with usqebach. You wouldn't think two violins made about the same would sound so vastly different, but one could be terrible and the other fantastic. The difference is astounding. I think the rosined bow brings a lot more sound up from the violin, which is why mandolins have courses of strings and they're played pretty hard. I prefer playing mandolin, but suble differences in Violins make amazing differences while singificant design differences in mandolins (and workmanship) do.

[dcc]

I used to play in an orchestra in which the daughter of one of the violists received a 4-year scholarship to the music school she wanted to go to. They promptly put ALL the money they saved to pay for her private college tuition into a violin. Scarey, huh?

[Chadmills]

Very interesting question, lots of good thoughts.
Do you play fiddle, Glenn, is your fiddle judgement at the same level as your mandolin judgement?
Comments above about the influence of bow and player seem very valid.

Worth bearing in mind that in violin terms, every F5 mandolin in the world is "modern." You don't have to climb the violin tree too high before you're dealing with instruments that are 100, 150, 200 years old. That makes a difference.

This is probably just rephrasing the question, but it seems helpful to me. I think with mandolins there's much more, "you get what you pay for." (Same with guitars?) With a violin, you just don't know. You could try two from the same workshop, and they'd be different. #Price may or may not be relevant.
(With great respect) I think buying a mandolin can be more like buying a car. #You can try out a friend's "such and such" like it, and say "I want one of those." Buying a fiddle is like buying a horse. You have to try them one at a time, until you find the one that's right for you.

There have been some interesting images of sound spectrums (spectra) from violins of different quality in articles in "The Strad" magazine. The visual differences were there, but they weren't that dramatic. It would be good to see mando equivalents.

Tom

[Jim M.]

What's the difference between a violin and a fiddle? No one cries if you spell beer on the fiddle.

I've been a violinist and a fiddler, and I'd say $2000 is not enough if you're a violinist, and $600 can be plenty if you're a fiddler.

[Lee]

Furthering along the hint to buy a new bow; I played a carbon fiber bow and was pleasantly surprised. They are very cost-effective too.
http://www.stringsmagazine.com/issue...BowReview.html

[gnelson651]

Thanks for the replies. They are interesting and valid.

Just to answer a few of questions here. My daughter uses an Incredibow. She is classically trained for 7 years and currently attends a magnet high school for the performing arts where orchestra is her primary major.

Although I don't play the violin, I hope I'm able to discern tonal differences of a musical instrument, regardless of what instrument. I just "know it when I hear it" kind of guy. My daughter, like most of the mandolinist here, knows what sound she wants. Based on many of your answers, it appears its not going to be in the $2,000 range.

As far a college, her plans are to go into mechanical engineeering for her undergrad and aerospace engineering for graduate school. Which is why her mother and I see no reason to buy anything more expensive then $2,000 )the extra money came from my coaching high school softball this season). My daugher is a talented fiddle player (two-time Nevada State jr. fiddle champion) and she can easily play in a country or bluegrass band as a fiddler for fun (not income).

Anyway, I will take many of your suggestions here and see if we can find something without too much compromise. My wife has suggested we put the money in an interest bearing CD and see if we can come up with a little more cash later if that what it takes to get my daughter what will probably be her last instrument(unlike her old man, she doesn't suffer from IAS-Instrument Acquision Syndrome).