The other 'd' in "dud"

**Vigee** · Apr-14-2008, 12:44am

I know this subject is brought up a lot: how to pick a jig. Should it be binary or trinary, DUD UDU or DUD DUD?

I don't want to reopen the question about one versus the other. But all the forums that deal with this subject extol the virtues of hitting the downstroke on the first and fourth beats of a 6/8 measure. They don't deal with the picking pattern in its entirety.

My question had to do more with those other downstrokes, the ones on three and six. After working with the Marylin Mair book for about a month, I find that I'm much more in control of my pick, able to change directions with great ease. Subsequently, it's been quite easy to hit the one and four when playing a jig. But I've also discovered that things sound rather clumsy if too many downstrokes occur in a row. For instance, the first measure of Trip to Sligo sound bad when played D_DDUD. I'd prefer D_UDDU. I also think it sounds strange when the note on one or four is the same on six or three, as in the first full measure of Coleraine.

So, is DUDDUD necessary if I'm already playing D? Or should I let the melody dictate how it's picked?

**Dagger Gordon** · Apr-14-2008, 1:31am

I go with the melody, which string you need to play next and several other factors which tends to mean I don't stick with DUD.

As you note, this topic has been often aired, and I believe most posters believe in the DUD DUD approach.

**TomTyrrell** · Apr-14-2008, 7:42am

The accent is on the first and fourth notes. If you get the accent correct nobody will even notice your picking direction. If somebody tells you that you should be using DUDDUD they are telling you that your accents aren't correct.

Actually, DUDDUD really sounds like DUD_DUD. You have to make that upstroke even if you don't hit the string. The upstroke takes just as much time so if you don't hit the string you get a rest.

**Jim Broyles** · Apr-14-2008, 12:31pm

Originally Posted by

Actually, DUDDUD really sounds like DUD_DUD. You have to make that upstroke even if you don't hit the string. The upstroke takes just as much time so if you don't hit the string you get a rest.

Huh? When I play DUDDUD in a 6/8 tune, there is no rest for the upstroke between the adjacent downstrokes. If there were it would be 7/8 time.

**Dagger Gordon** · Apr-14-2008, 1:58pm

What do you do if you want to put in some triplets or extra grace notes?

**Jim Broyles** · Apr-14-2008, 2:03pm

Who me? I'm not good enough for those things!

**Vigee** · Apr-14-2008, 2:17pm

Originally Posted by

What do you do if you want to put in some triplets or extra grace notes?

I'm still trying to figure out what I ought to be doing. And now that I can, I will.

**TomTyrrell** · Apr-14-2008, 3:50pm

Originally Posted by (jbmando @ April 14 2008, 13:31)

Huh? When I play DUDDUD in a 6/8 tune, there is no rest for the upstroke between the adjacent downstrokes. If there were it would be 7/8 time.

How do you go about getting the pick from below the string to above the string in order to accomplish the second Down stroke?

**Jim Broyles** · Apr-14-2008, 3:56pm

I pick it up, but it does not take a beat's duration to do so. There is the same duration between the First D and the first U as there is between the second D and the third D.

**TomTyrrell** · Apr-14-2008, 4:05pm

Originally Posted by (jbmando @ April 14 2008, 16:56)

I pick it up, but it does not take a beat's duration to do so. There is the same duration between the First D and the first U as there is between the second D and the third D.

Well, I didn't really mean to imply a full beat's rest but I was kind of assuming an Irish Jig and most everybody I know plays those things in definate groups of three.

**Jim Broyles** · Apr-14-2008, 4:18pm

Tom, it doesn't matter how you look at it, there is zero rest between those two back-to-back downstrokes. If anything, you have to rush your right hand a little to bring it back up for the second of those two strokes. You do play those tunes in definite groups of three, but meter is meter and 3 to 4 takes the same amount of time as 1 to 2.

**TomTyrrell** · Apr-14-2008, 4:34pm

Whatever but there really is a reason it is 6/8 and not 3/4.

**Jim Broyles** · Apr-14-2008, 4:46pm

I'm sorry, I don't get your point. Of course there is a reason it's 6/8 and not 3/4. I am not referring to 3/4 at all. There is no rest between any two beats in 6/8 meter. I submit that if you play DUDUDU, it will take the same amount of time as playing DUDDUD only it won't have the same feel. This is all I'm saying.

**Vigee** · Apr-14-2008, 5:14pm

Originally Posted by

There is no rest between any two beats in 6/8 meter.

Could I suggest that Tom does not want to say there is a musical rest, but that there is no work being done to strike the note? He is resting in the sense that he produces no note, but still involves motion.

**Jim Broyles** · Apr-14-2008, 6:36pm

Originally Posted by (Vigee @ April 14 2008, 18:14)

Originally Posted by

There is no rest between any two beats in 6/8 meter.

Could I suggest that Tom does not want to say there is a musical rest, but that there is no work being done to strike the note? He is resting in the sense that he produces no note, but still involves motion.

You may suggest it, but I still say that there is more work being done because you have to pull your pick up and back down through a string in the same amount of time you would normally have to only pull it up through a string.

Here's what I mean:

DDDDDD > Most work
DUDDUD > Second most work.
DUDUDU > Least work

All take the same time per note.

Furthermore, Tom said:

Originally Posted by

Actually, DUDDUD really sounds like DUD_DUD. You have to make that upstroke even if you don't hit the string. The upstroke takes just as much time so if you don't hit the string you get a rest.

I maintain that the upstroke between the two consecutive downstrokes actually does NOT take as much time because you have to do it quicker to play the note in time.

**Bertram Henze** · Apr-15-2008, 8:04am

I am with Dagger Gordon in doing what comes in handy under the circumstances rather than sticking to a fixed pattern.
But for that argument about the effort of moving back between DD and the suggestion to make it a triplet if you're moving back anyway, I remember Dan Beimborn describing his DDUDDU pattern and the resulting ease of triplet production elsewhere on the Cafe.

Bertram

**jc2** · Apr-16-2008, 11:07pm

Just to veer off in a different direction, there has been some discussion at thesession about how to play jigs, not necessarily on plucked instruments, with a lot of the true traditional Irish players talking about how the first note of each triplet should be approached with a slur. This translates to the mando with making the first note of each triplet a hammer-on whenever practical. It's like a way of emphasizing the first beat without accenting it. As I try it, it does provide that bounce or lilt or whatever. Can't do it as much as a bowed instrument, though. It DOES make for only two plucks per triplet though, and whatever that does to this discussion.