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Thread: Whats wrong with f styles?

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    I've been getting into mandolin pretty heavy recently and I really want to get myself an F-style. It seems when people ask for a mandolin thats not to expensive everybody says A style. Plus I wanted to have an Accoustic/electric which even makes it more difficult lol

    Right now I have a A style Carlo Robelli that I got for 70 bucks used (it actually sounds alot better than I paid for it) but since I am really getting into mandolin I want to upgrade. I like playing country, bluegrass and just about everything really. I gig (guitar but recently I have been adding mandolin into the set list) so that's why I really wanted an electric. I am open to installing pickups or any other suggestions. Definately don't want to spend 1k on a mandolin but I am not restricted to only 100$.

    Also any explanation as to why the A style is recommended in the lower price would be appreciated also.

    Phew. I'm done talking now

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    General concensus round here seems to be that the f-style brings LOOKS and EXPENSE without adding to TONE.

    Those scrolls sure do look cool, though
    No...YOU stand back.

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    Hey Mandanoob, if I understand your question, my answer would be this; essentially you can get a lot more bang for your buck with an A style. What I mean is, if you have $1,000 to spend on a mando, you could get a pretty decent A or an average F. You pay for all of those beautiful curves! (That's true on so many levels isn't it! )
    If you want an F, get an F. If you are restricted to a dollar amount and simply want the best sounding mando for your money, chances are an A will get you ever closer to that wonderful, woody tone. Make sense?
    Krishot A5

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    Yeah. I wish they didn't looks as good as they do But in the end it always comes down to tone and feel.

    Electrical wise, is it better to go with buying one that already has a pickup? Or installing one? Or maybe just micing it? I know a decent amount about guitars but I am still relatively new to the mandolin.

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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    If you take the top off, the sound chambers are practically identical for both A and F style mandolins. There are almost no F styles which don't have a solid block under the scroll and point areas, therefore, the difference is in the appearance only. I like F styles myself, but I have had a really good A style, a Kentucky KM-250S, and with a good set up and good strings, you can't hear a difference in otherwise equal mandolins. A's are recommended because those making the recommendations know that if you are on a budget and you really want the most mandolin for your money, you will more likely find what you want in an A style than an F style. Keep a sharp lookout for solid wood, or at least solid top instruments and you will occasionally come across a real good deal on an F. If you can find a Fullerton Gloucester, snatch it up. These have a real good bluegrass sound and are not expensive.



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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    I have used the K&K Mandolin Twin and a Shure PG57 to plug in my mandos. I prefer the mic to the pickup, but there is a wide range of opinions on the subject. Do a search on pickup or microphone in the equipment forum.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

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    Registered User man dough nollij's Avatar
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    Welcom, Mandanoob! (I'm only slightly less noobier, myself.) As noted, the difference is in what you pay for the scroll and the ornamentation. There are some great photo documentations on this forum and elsewhere that show you how much work goes into cutting, joining, carving, and binding just the scroll portion of an "F" instrument. It's basically decoration, so you might ask what you would have to pay for the same important features (solid top, good tone woods, careful graduation and tuning...) without the extra scroll expense, you'd get an "A" model. I looked at the Weber site (they're one of the brands I'm most familiar with, and they offer a lot of models in A or F style). A Weber Fern (very fancy, professional-grade mando) lists for $6599 in an "F" style, and $3775 in an "A" style. If tone is all you're after, and can live without the scroll, the A is obviously more bang for your buck. This price difference gives you some idea of the man-hours (person-hours?) that go into just the scroll, since the difference in materials is small. Some may argue that the scroll does affect tone some, but it's gotta be pretty subtle, since it's not a structural member. Also, some A models have a different body volume and "thickness" than an equivalent F model, but that's not universal (I believe with the Webers it is as simple as scroll or no-scroll). Happy Hunting!
    Lee

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    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    I'd say the strong attraction to F models is linked to the majority of pros use the F models. Starting with Dave Apollon/William Place,Jr./The Bellson brothers etc and then onto the bluegrass generation of Monroe/Osborne/McReynolds/Grisman/Bush etc.
    To me just the feel alone of having an F model in my hands is worth the extra dough. I would rather spend $1500 on a Kentucky 1000/Eastman 915 then a $1000 A of any brand.
    And it looks cooler too.

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    K&K looks very interesting and isn't that pricey either. The problem for me in finding a mandolin will be trying to get my hands on different ones. I will go down to the music store and see what they have to offer tomorrow because I really hate buying something I haven't played yet. Thanks for all the advice guys! Fast, helpful and nice about answering questions I'm sure you have gotten before

  10. #10
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Mandanoob @ April 22 2008, 00:58)
    I will go down to the music store and see what they have to offer tomorrow because I really hate buying something I haven't played yet.
    Good move. #Generalizations about different types or brands of mandolin go only so far. #There's variation among individual instruments of the same brand and model. #Of course, it helps if your "music store" has several brands and styles of mandolin; I have found that most Guitar Centers, for example, have only one or two instruments.

    If you can't find a range of comparable instruments to try, there are several on-line and mail-order dealers who have excellent reputations on the Cafe. #Elderly Instruments, Gianna Violins, The Mandolin Store, and Janet Davis Music, among others, have all received good reviews. #You can usually trust their recommendations.

    Still, you can't beat "hands on" for giving you the real feel and sound of an instrument. #And nothing's more fun than spending a couple hours trying a variety of mandolins. #Trouble is, I end up wanting all of them...
    Allen Hopkins
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    I think you're on the right track. Play as many as you can. This is just the begining for you. MAS attacks occur even on the strongest willed people. Good luck on your quest.
    I Pick, Therefore I Grin! ... "Good Music Any OLD-TIME"

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    Luthier Wanna be Sitka's Avatar
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    There is a difference in the size of the sound chamber. The 'F' is a little bigger because of a space behind the headblock. I once read an article by Lawrence Smart that said that the extra space and the stiffness added by the scroll ridge can be attributed to a different tone.

    Most people look at the scroll as a $1,000 strap hanger. Some say that there isn't a difference in the sound between the models. Some say that there is a difference. IMHO, I think that it pretty much comes down to playing a bunch of mandolins and picking the one the you like the best.

    Micah

  13. #13

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    I've never seen an F with a solid scroll. They are all half-hollow. Depending on how the scroll is carved there can be a difference in the way the top and back resonate on an F versus an A. There can be a definate difference in tone, or not.

    Just count the number of F-style mandolins signed by Lloyd Loar and then compare that with the number of A-style mandolins he signed. Gibson was a business, if Loar could have gotten the tone he wanted from an A-style he would have done many more.

  14. #14

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    While sound is always key, I really believe that how something feels and looks is important. I have an F-style because I absolutely love the way it looks and feels.

    As a classic car enthusiast, I have the same issues. When you drive your car, you touch the steering wheel the entire time (hopefully), so why not spend a little money to get something that pleases you? I spent $250 and got a Nardi Classico wood wheel, and love it!

    Your instrument should please All your senses!

    BB

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    Scroll envy is tough. #I really want my next mandolin to be a "keeper". #And I totally know that the sensable route is for a nice handmade A syle. #Its all about how it makes the sound. #If it feels good and plays nice, it could be pink sparklecoat.

    But well, I want and F. #For me it seems more like a mandolin. #A styles just seem like little weird guitars. #I hate to say it, but the F style is iconic. #Those points and scroll really make the instrument what it is in people's eyes (including mine). #It like a strat or tele. #Sure there are tons of electric guitar syles out ther, but nothing says electric guitar like a strat. #(this is simply an example, lets not get started on guitar fashon) And nothing says "mandolin" like an F5.

    All this being said, I very well might get an A syle because its more affordable for essentially the same amount of instrument. #I'm on a budget. #Its going to work just as well for playing music, which is what its for. #But If I'm going to get an instrument that I want to grow old with, a keeper, the one, etc... Its probably going to have points and a scroll. #It doesn't make sense from a bottom line, maximum utility standpoint, but when its about picking an instrument that is going to be your best freind for many years, everything matters.

    Edit:
    Actually, this is a little misplaced. After re reading the origional post, I'd say 100% go with an A style. The amount you save on the extra labor on the pretty bits will go toward the important bits, neck frets and carving the plates. And get an aftermarket pickup once you find a great mandolin. Mandolins arn't like guitars, stock pickups are VERY rare. Most people play into mics, and those who don't use aftermarket pickups. But be sure to try it out the mando before you buy it, pay particular attention to how the neck feels and how the pick reacts with the strings to make sound.



    Gotta start sometime, might as well be now...

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    Registered User bradeinhorn's Avatar
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    in the under 1000 range, if you are absolutely heartset on getting an f-5, i'd recommend either the new flatirons from gibson (around 750) or a used eastman 515 for around the same price. i recommend the flatiron first because i've seen a lot of inconsistencies within the eastman mandolins. some are quite nice, but some wouldn't seem to me as much of an upgrade from what you've got.

    if it was my money, i'd wait around for a used gibson a-9 or - in your case - perhaps an entry level rigel with built in pick up for 850-1000. or maybe consider a used breedlove quartz (i believe) model.

    it is in your exact price range that finding a quality f-style instrument is the toughest and most folks here will tell you to go with an a-5. i agree with them. as to the micing/pickup issue - what instruments are you playing with? if it's drums and electric instruments, a mic may very well not cut it.

    good luck,b
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    I agree with most of what Brad says above, except the notion that an Eastman wouldn't be much of an upgrade from a Carlo Robelli? No offense, but there's no comparison; even a lesser Eastman would be a noticeable improvement from a Carlo Robelli (some of the least impressive mandolins I've ever played), and a good Eastman would be a dramatic improvement. Please note that "good" does not indicate trim line; the best Eastman I ever played was an entry level 515.

    I also agree with the Breedlove recommendation. If you have your heart set on an F, Breedlove may not be for you as they don't make a true F. However, these are extremely well-made instruments with great tone, sold at a very reasonable price.

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    Probably nothing new here but if you are on a budget of less than $2k, want a great sounding instrument, then I'd go with an A-style. In that quality range, an F-style will cost you at least an extra $1000.

    Just compare an A9 to an F9 for example:
    A9=$1899, F9=$2999

    However, if you are mostly playing or mostly electric, I'd say get the most playable mandolin you can get (A or F), add a pickup, then adjust the tone electronically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (TomTyrrell @ April 22 2008, 08:39)
    Just count the number of F-style mandolins signed by Lloyd Loar and then compare that with the number of A-style mandolins he signed. Gibson was a business, if Loar could have gotten the tone he wanted from an A-style he would have done many more.
    Loar surely signed the F's because they sold for more money (as discussed above.) I'd be very surprised if an objective assessment of tone quality came into it.
    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by (TomTyrrell @ April 22 2008, 08:39)
    I've never seen an F with a solid scroll. They are all half-hollow. Depending on how the scroll is carved there can be a difference in the way the top and back resonate on an F versus an A. There can be a definate difference in tone, or not.
    Some builders will also increase the sound chamber size by carving out some wood from underneath the ridge-line of the scroll. Mac Rostie shows this approach in his "how to build and arch top mandolin" DVD. A real but certainly subtle technique.
    32° AASR

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Chadmills @ April 22 2008, 12:51)
    Quote Originally Posted by (TomTyrrell @ April 22 2008, 08:39)
    Just count the number of F-style mandolins signed by Lloyd Loar and then compare that with the number of A-style mandolins he signed. Gibson was a business, if Loar could have gotten the tone he wanted from an A-style he would have done many more.
    Loar surely signed the F's because they sold for more money (as discussed above.) I'd be very surprised if an objective assessment of tone quality came into it.
    Tom
    And the scroll and points were around on Gibson mandolins long before Loar arrived. #He created a new take on the mandolin within the existing stylistic requirements. #A fancy Gibson mandolin had to have a scroll because it was a Gibson signature embellishment, like the violin scroll headstock of Lyon and Healy mandolins, not because it made them sound better. #Despite that, I still love the way they look!

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    Everyone is right about the scroll on an F, it's beautiful but pricey. It's tough to do. As far as the difference in sound, the debate rages constantly. Some builder claim the scroll makes no difference in tone. Here's something I read recently that may cloud the debate, or make it clearer.

    We can safely assume that most of the knowledge about modern mandolin making was based on the old Gibsons, most notably the Loar era instruments. On Greg Boyd's site he has a Givens A for sale by the late Bob Givens. In the description Greg says that in the 70's Bob Givens acquired two Gibson Loars; an A and an F, and dismantled them to take precise measurements. He goes on to say that one of Bob's great contributions to modern mandolin making was that he began building A's with the same dimensions as F's. This is coming from Greg's knowledge, and I know he's had his hands on more mandolins than I ever will. This is all from my memory as his site seems to be down right now.

    I'm only inferring here, but that says to me that the Gibson A's were not just F's without the scroll; they had different internal dimensions all together. Bob began to build A styles with the same dimensions as an F; A's that sounded like Gibson F's instead of Gibson A's. So perhaps there are some builders that make their A's more like the old Gibson A's, and some that build them more like the Gibson F's.

    I know my Weber Absaroka does not sound like my Pomeroy F...not at all. But it's a different beast all together. It's more delicate, smoother, not as brash. There probably ARE A's that sound like bluegrass machines though.

    I just thought that was very interesting. The builders section may have more info on this topic. The builders that say their F's and A's sound the same are most likely building them to the same dimensions.



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    Quote Originally Posted by (bradeinhorn @ April 22 2008, 09:43)

    it is in your exact price range that finding a quality f-style instrument is the toughest and most folks here will tell you to go with an a-5. i agree with them. as to the micing/pickup issue - what instruments are you playing with? if it's drums and electric instruments, a mic may very well not cut it.

    good luck,b
    I am playing alongisde drums, electric guitar, bass, singer, keyboards and every now and then a fiddle player. So when I do get a new mandolin I might try micing it but I think I might have to use a pickup in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Twango @ April 22 2008, 14:08)
    On Greg Boyd's site he has a Givens A for sale by the late Bob Givens. In the description Greg says that in the 70's Bob Givens acquired two Gibson Loars; an A and an F, and dismantled them to take precise measurements....
    Actually it doesn't say he acquired them or that he dismantled them. It says:

    "Bob Givens had the rare pleasure of examining a matched pair of Gibson Loar mandolins - an F as well as the only A that was ever produced and signed by Loar. Unbelievably, he partially disassembled both of them to study them closely."

    Unless of course Greg has more than one copy of this story on his website.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Quote Originally Posted by (MikeEdgerton @ April 22 2008, 15:47)
    Unbelievably, he partially disassembled both of them to study them closely." Unless of course Greg has more than one copy of this story on his website.
    I think you're right. As I said...from memory. The memory is gettin worse all the time.



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