Right hand question

[Barbara Shultz]

I have a question concerning right hand technique (for a change, haha!) I have heard many people say they tilt their thumb toward the floor (or something to that effect), but I can't envision what they are trying to say. Can anyone explain that in a way I grasp???

Another question that I have is concerning how the wrist moves. I've tried watching various people, and of course, every one is different And everyone goes so darn fast!!!

There's one motion that could be described as the motion your wrist would take to turn a door knob, or used to flick something. I think this motion makes the pick move across the strings in and up and down arc; swooping down into the strings; exaggerating the movement would be the pick held higher than the strings at the beginning and at the follow-through.

Another wrist movement I've witnessed could be described as the wrist going side to side, so the pick is on about the same plane beginning to end, and the arc is laying on it's side... exaggerating and slowing it down, the end of a downstroke is more toward the bridge.

Which of these techniques would be considered more correct, more efficient, more popular, etc., and what are the pros and cons of each?

Thanks for your input!
Barbara

[John of Patcham]

I have a question concerning right hand technique (for a change, haha!) #I have heard many people say they tilt their thumb toward the floor (or something to that effect), but I can't envision what they are trying to say. #Can anyone explain that in a way I grasp???

This is basically just a question of the angle of the pick as it hits the string - does it hit the string flat or do you slightly lead into the string with the left-hand edge of the pick (assuming a right-handed player). #The latter tends to give a more rounded tone with less pick click but it's also going to depend on the bevel on your pick.

Another question that I have is concerning how the wrist moves. #I've tried watching various people, and of course, every one is different # # And everyone goes so darn fast!!!

There's one motion that could be described as the motion your wrist would take to turn a door knob, or used to flick something. #I think this motion makes the pick move across the strings in and up and down arc; swooping down into the strings; exaggerating the movement would be the pick held higher than the strings at the beginning and at the follow-through.

Another wrist movement I've witnessed could be described as the wrist going side to side, so the pick is on about the same plane beginning to end, and the arc is laying on it's side... exaggerating and slowing it down, the end of a downstroke is more toward the bridge.

Which of these techniques would be considered more correct, more efficient, more popular, etc., and what are the pros and cons of each?

Sit with your right arm out in front of you, palm facing left. #The wrist only moves in two directions:

Left/right, the table-tennis bat movement - that's of no interest to us.

Up/down, the fly-fishing movement - from what I've read, that's the basis of what most players regard as good flatpicking technique.

In addition, though, you can also rotate your entire lower arm from the elbow, the turning a key in a lock movement. #In picking that gives an in/out sort of motion that you mostly want to avoid. #

However, if you played strictly up/down then you would never be able to move from, say, a downstroke on the E string to an upstroke on the A string as the E string would be in the way. #So we all have to use a bit of in/out movement to facilitate certain string crossings.

Now, with your arm still out there, bend the wrist so your palm comes round to face you. #Now try the up/down movement and you'll find that you can't do it without some lower arm rotation creeping in. #That's the importance of keeping the wrist reasonably straight. #It's easier to do that if you play with the mandolin angled away from your body.

[Celtic Saguaro]

John's description is very good. Most of the movement is up and down. You notice the twist more while playing chords across several strings. I'd say that any "doorknob twist" you'd use in picking individual notes (except as a flourish) would be a very, very fairly subtle movement almost entirely with the wrist. As John says, there is more movement in and out.

[Barbara Shultz]

Thanks for the explanations! That helps a lot!

Barbara

[MikeB]

Hi Barb! I tend to agree with the others here about this, but I distinctly remember getting my first Mel Bay Mandolin book about 100 years ago, and it prescribed a wrist motion much more like the "door knob" technique you describe. I suspect this was the 'classical' approach--at least according to MB. I don't know what the classical people actually use.

I know this doesn't give you a definitive answer, but it at least validates your question!

Honestly, I think my technique (if you can call it that ) has some of both in it. In fact, if I hold my wrist out in front, as John described, I can actually move my wrist in circles, not just two directions. If we were limited to just two, the decision would be SO much easier, don't you think?

[Ted Eschliman]

I like the doorknob picture, but more for grip concept than motion. The way you naturally grab a doorknob is just enough tension to keep the knob from slipping as you rotate--relaxed, but strong enough for the contacting flesh to twist the knob. (Unless you're storming out of a room preparing the door to slam for dramatic effect...) This picture describes nicely how much tension needs to be on the pick grip, but I think it also translates all the way up to the wirst and elbow. (Unless you happen to be Sam Bush...)

It's interesting to watch different players and how their wrists move, a lot of times it has to do with musical style. The "motorboat" in & out of the picking in speed bluegrass requires even more looseness. Watching Jeff Pinkham, Josh's father play mandolin, his up and down finger motion looks like a sewing machine bobbin. Oddly, Josh does not play that way.

[chip]

I recently was fortunate to sit with Matt Flinner for a couple of hours and learn some things. If you can, go to Bluegrasscollege.org and watch some of the sample lessons by him, Andy Leftwich, and Jesse Cobb. Watch how they play, it may very well answer your concerns. You may even want to buy a lesson from their site, watch the video portion as they slow down the songs. If your able to mimic their motion it may straighten out some bad habits.

[sva234]

I've had the same kinda question, and similar to chip's post I got some tips from Matt Flinner watching him at a show just last week -- though I was up close, watching his right hand picking it seemed like he hardly moved it at all, it was so smooth. Frankly, I didn't see any 'doorknobbing' from him.

I posed the question to my mandolin teacher, he too indicated that his right hand motion is more on a 'plane' up/down, with the pick slightly tilted down toward ground.

my $0.02

[mando andy]

For the commentary of the greats on this one go to the Comando Guest of the Week---they all comment on this--Marilynn Mair has a lot to say about this (go to the website and click on her interview). For about a year or so--the great players were interviewed on the Comando list serve--

http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/index.php

Andy

an excerpt:

Marilynn wrote: "On your D string, keep your wrist loose and pick down (dropping your hand from the wrist, not the elbow) until the pick rests on the A string". I'd like to clarify something on this that I've wondered for a while. The movement of "dropping your hand from the wrist...", is this a strictly up-and-down motion or is it achieved by rotating the the hand at the wrist joint? There's a big difference between the two. I think most "untrained" players (myself included) rotate the hand. That seems more of a natural motion than an actual up-and-down motion.

A - Yes, that's it, exactly! It's a rotation at the wrist, and the forearm remains pretty stationary. When you rotate you can feel the motion is really easy and relaxed. It's the best way to keep the right arm relaxed. A "push-pull", where the wrist remains stationary and the hand moves, is much more tension-laden and hampers your nuance of tone (what you'll work on later, when you get to the nuance stage :-) Just be sure that you're not lifting your hand up AFTER you hit the string. That adds tension and doesn't affect the sound one bit. Just allow the hand to fall.


Q21
Q - I've read some of your articles (including the one on tremolo) and wonder why you choose to play a flatback mandolin as opposed to a bowlback?

I am a beginner -- i started with the intention of focusing in bluegrass, but quickly discovered the diversity of the mandolin and am now getting classical training.

A - Nice to hear from the ladies! I far prefer the sound of a flat (carved) back instrument, for my purposes. I like the overtones and the warmth of the sound. It's a personal preference and one that works for my expressive style.


Q22
Q - How do you hold your right wrist? do you bend it, or keep it flat?

A - My right wrist is arched. It facilitates the light fast up-down picking needed for the tremolo. I have a very flexible wrist, so if you've ever seen me play, my wrist looks really bent. This is not advisable for everyone. To find out your optimum bend, hold your right arm out straight from the shoulder and let your hand fall from the wrist. Swing it around in front of your face and look at it. Flatten out slightly, so you don't feel the bend in the back of the wrist. For me, that's still quite bent, for some folks, that's nearly straight. Rotate your hand by swiveling the forearm, don't push-pull from either the elbow or the wrist.


Q23
Q - Do you hug the neck with your left hand or keep it away in the classical style?

A - My left wrist has a slight arch and is away from the neck. My left thumb is at the side of the neck at around the 2nd fret. You don't want to stress your left wrist by over-arching, or by pushing the front of the wrist strongly forward. The mandolin is a high-tension instrument, compared to the violin or guitar, so even if you do everything right you'll still have left arm issues after a couple of decades. If you do it wrong you won't get more than a couple of years.

It's good to get classical training. It's very flexible, and a teacher will make sure you don't develop any bad habits that could block your progress. Good luck and have fun!

[AlanN]

Stay away from the doorknob thing, also from the screwdriver motion. Better is the fishing rod casting motion or flinging water off your hand.

How's that for tool and kitchen references?