Piccolo Mandolins

**Jim Garber** · Jun-15-2004, 12:41pm

I recently acquired a piccolo mandolin made by Leland, a Brand distributed by Lyon & Healy. I posted a photo and a scan of a L&H catalog page at this thread.

It is tuned one-fourth higher than a standard mandolin (one octave higher than a tenor mandola). The scale is 10.25" (260mm).

I was just wondering if this was just a flash-in-the-pan innovation for mandolin ensembles at the time (1912 or so). I have never seen any music actually written for such an instrument. The only other insruments that I have seen with such a short scale is a one-of-a-kind 6-string Gibson.

Have there been any bowlbacks with similar tuning/scale? Or is this just a sideshow curiosity in mandolinland?

Jim

**Bob A** · Jun-16-2004, 7:30pm

Way cool, Jim.

Sparks mentions piccolo mandolins in his glossary, indicating they're usually tuned a fourth above regular instruments, and suggests they were good instruments for kids whose hands couldn't accomodate a full sized instrument. I've seen several on ebay and in other places, mostly in bowlback config. Always wanted one - the Gibson six-stringer has fascinated me.

AT the moment my wants are being satisfied with a baglama - a sort of piccolo bouzouki. The tonality is unearthly. Sounds more like hammering on tuned metal rods than anything with strings; still it has its own delights. Eagerly await your report after stringing.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-17-2004, 10:57am

Originally Posted by (Bob A @ June 16 2004, 20:30)

I've seen several on ebay and in other places, mostly in bowlback config.

bob:
I would be interested in seeing other piccolos, esp bowlbacks. I haven't sen any of those, unlees I just didn't realize what they were. I have seen many of those German-made "pocket"mandolins, but those actually have standard scale BION.

Jim

**Bob A** · Jun-17-2004, 12:38pm

You know, Jim, it probably WAS the ubiquitous pocket mandolin I was thinking of. If I spot a piccobowlo, it will be brought to your attention pronto!

**Jim Garber** · Jun-17-2004, 2:17pm

The extension of my question is: in the embryonic stages of Neapolitan mandolin development was there a piccolo or soprano instrument? Did Vinaccia ever make such a thing?

Jim

**Eugene** · Jun-17-2004, 2:38pm

I don't know about Vinaccia, but there were certainly European bowled kin. Yours would have been analogous to the quartino, Jim. Then there was the terzino (a minor third above mandolin) and ottavino (you guessed it, way on up to e'''). However, I don't know of any formal lit for such stuff. I suspect their most frequent use was as orchestral novelty. I hope Alex sees this and has something interesting to add.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-17-2004, 2:51pm

Ah, Eugene, leave it to you to supply me with the key word: quartino

It looks likes Dogal makes a set specifically for these instruments.

Jim

**Eugene** · Jun-17-2004, 2:55pm

I had no idea! Now that's obscure.

**Bob A** · Jun-17-2004, 8:27pm

I have a vague recollection of Calace providing a short-scale instrument for his daughter Maria. I doubt it would have been a regular production item, but doubtless there are a few extant, somewhere.

**Bob A** · Jun-21-2004, 8:48am

A look at Alex's book brings to light a 1930 Gelas piccolo mandolin with a 280 mm scale. It has the typical Gelas double table.

So. Uncommon, but not unheard-of.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-21-2004, 9:25am

The problem is the nomenclature: very often those "pocket" #or pochette mandolins are called piccolo when they are actually the same scale and tuning as a standard mandolin.

Here is a true piccolo with a very short 9.5 inch (241 mm) scale.

Also: David Grisman has a Gilchrist piccolo that he plays on "Why Did the Mouse Marry the Elephant" on Dawgnation.

Jim

**Jim Garber** · Jun-21-2004, 11:14am

I finally adapted a bridge I had for the piccolo and strung it up last night. #Interesting sound, obviously upper range but this particular one has a nice sweet sound, lacking some sustain tho. The frets need some levelling in places but it is playable, tho I agree with Mr. Grisman that it takes a little getting used to, to crimp up your fingers.

If I have a chance and can figure out a way I will record some ditties on it for all to hear.

Jim

**Jim Garber** · Jun-21-2004, 9:52pm

Here is an mp3 of Carolan's Concerto played on the Leland piccolo mandolin. Obviously, it is in the wrong key, but you get the idea.

Jim

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-22-2004, 5:42am

Nice sound and nice playing, Jim!

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-22-2004, 6:37am

Hello again,

Yes, Neapolitan luthiers did make Piccolo mandolins and even as early as the late 18th century.

In the late 19th and beginning of the 20th century there are several Roman makers who again took up making and developing these high pitched models further (mainly to be used in mandolin orchestras).

During the first half of 20th century they were made in all the main mandolin centra in Italy (Rome, Napels, Bologna, Catania etc. and outside Italy in for instance France, Germany, US etc. ). Of course not in such huge quantities as known of the mandolin, but made to meet the demand, so to say.

The term Piccolo mandolin refers only to their small size and must be seen as a covering name for smaller and higher pitched mandolins within the mandolin family. To know whether it´s a Terzino, a Quartino or an Octavino one needs to know the mensure (swinging string-length) of the Piccolo.

With the enlargement of the fingerboard up to 29 frets by the Roman mandolin makers in the last quarter of the 19th century (among others followed by the Neapolitans), the Piccolo mandolin gradually lost it´s place (in the orchestra). Most likely this is also the reason why the interest decreased and the production took off. It was soon only to be seen as a rarity.

Best,

Alex ©

**Jim Garber** · Jun-22-2004, 7:18am

Originally Posted by (Alex @ June 22 2004, 07:37)

The term Piccolo mandolin refers only to their small size and must be seen as a covering name for smaller and higher pitched mandolins within the mandolin family. To know whether it´s a Terzino, a Quartino or an Octavino one needs to know the mensure (swinging string-length) of the Piccolo.

Alex, what is the exact definition of these terms? Is Terzino one third higher than the mandolin; Quartino, on-fourth; and Octavino, one Octave.

The only piccolo in your book (Gelas) has a scale length (mensure) of 280 mm (11 inches). That one is tuned cgda (like mine). Would that make it a Quartino? What would be the other scale lengths of the Terzino and Octavino?

Jim

**Jim Garber** · Jun-22-2004, 7:40am

I checked in Paul Sparks book and his definitions correspond to what I outlined above with the exception that the Terzino is defined as tuned a minor third above the mandolin. Sparks says that Ranieri credits Embergher with creatingthe Terzino and that Vinaccia developed the Quartino.

Jim

**vkioulaphides** · Jun-22-2004, 10:00am

Very, very nice playing, Jim! But no, I sense no "lack of sustain" that one could complain about— especially with such short scale and a minuscule bowl!

It must be funny to come across an instrument that makes the mandolin feel large by comparison!

**Jim Garber** · Jun-22-2004, 10:44am

Just to make things clear. This little guy is a flatback mandolin, not a bowlback. I suppose tho that my comment about lack of sustain really refers to the treble end of the range of the instrument. Considering the size of the soundbox it does have a nice sound to it. I suppose that I am used to the sustain of my pandini. Hmmm... I wonder if Sr. Pandini has built any quartinos.

Jim