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Thread: Verzi tonal enhancer ..huh? what's that?

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    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    My understanding is that the prized signed Lloyd Loar mandolins were constructed with a component known as the Verzi ….huh? …what’s that under there? …. my web search led me to discover (don’t know how factual) # that Mike Kemmitzer (Nugget Mandolins ) also builds his mandos with a verzi …….also .I stumbled across a photo documentation of a Lynn Dudenbostel’s #F5 for Chris Thile ….hence another newbie question to follow after viewing the link below …..

    http://www.thefishnet.com/makemandolin/page5.htm

    What enhanced tonal characteristics does the Verzi produce/emit???……. that is my question……. and I fail to understand why Roger Siminoff has not included the verzi in his manual simply because at the onset of his manual he makes reference that the plans contained in his book are based on the original Loar’s…….. I’m somewhat disillusioned by Roger’s neglect to address the verzi….not to mention being duped.

    A close look at Lynn’s work and some searching of Loar’s plans reveal the location of the two inverted #landing pads (feet)to be pinpointed to coincide with the sharp inner point of the f-hole (lateral axis)…….which is theoretically #directly under the bearing points of the bridge…….. could the positioning be related to a static middle node of the fundamental if the top is acting as the fundamental and hence influencing partials surrounding the fundamental #to resonate more readily …. I don’t pretend to be a physicist ….I have no clue other than applying some of what I feel is #primitive physics 101 logic in my understanding of fundamentals and partials.

    Also the C shaped holes are akin ( I believe/think) to the top F-hole…… #my guess here is that the removal of the wood alters tone ……deepens the tone of the partials as more wood is removed.

    Loar’s plans indicate the verzi to be centered on the longitudinal axis …… it appears as though Lynn’s is offset towards the bass bar…….. my hope here is that I am not stepping on any toes in the sense of pushing to know the secrets of what produces optimum tone… …I understand those are personal and attained through years of trial and error ….nor would I expect them to be handed out …however #my quest is to attain an understanding of the engineering genius of Lloyd and try to employ some of his principles as made public through his plans.

    Like I said in one of my prior posts the deeper I get into this mando build project the nuttier my questions appear….. they are nevertheless sincere and genuine.

    Mike
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    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

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    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    Thanks John ......along with the late Lloyd you're another genius # .....once I get this theory behind me I'll trudge ahead boldly ....... in the meantime this Northern boy is still takin' baby steps in finding his way.

    Mike
    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

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    I've often wondered how he arrived at the size of it?? Seems like a bigger disk might be more definitive..
    My wife says I don't pay enough attention to what she says....
    (Or something like that...)

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    Violins and Mandolins Stephanie Reiser's Avatar
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    Chris has since had the Virzi removed.
    http://www.stephaniereiser.com then click mandolins

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Actually there are several builders that offer their version of the Virzi. Jamie Wiens has his "Wienzi" among others.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Gail Hester too. I'm likely going to have Brian Dean do something like a Virzi in mine...
    I'm a Virzi Fan.

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    alt_2ooning: What enhanced tonal characteristics does the Verzi produce/emit???……. that is my question……. and I fail to understand why Roger Siminoff has not included the verzi in his manual simply because at the onset of his manual he makes reference that the plans contained in his book are based on the original Loar’s…….. I’m somewhat disillusioned by Roger’s neglect to address the verzi….not to mention being duped.
    I have no idea why you feel "duped". All you have to do is email or call Roger he is one of the easist persons to talk to I know. He answers the phone himself 9 times out of 10. In addition he sells ready to install Virzi's -- they are listed on his site for $30.
    Bernie
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    Just about any builder will stick one of those gizmos in...it's taking it out that will cost ya! #
    BTB, don't know what genius Loar had with the Virzi...didn't one of the brothers have sort of a close relation to Lloyd?




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    Registered User evanreilly's Avatar
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    Waaaayyyy back the rumor was that Lloyd received a kick-back from the Virzi Brothers for each Tone Enhancer installed in a Gibson instrument. Check Snopes.com for this one!

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    I was looking for a piece on Roger Siminoff's web page where he addressed this rumor but I can't seem to find it. I did find this page on the Virzi for anyone looking to find out more about the little disk.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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    I know that a lot of people don't care for the sound of a mandolin with a Virzi installed inside. But that's generally because it makes the sound quality of the instruments less suitable for bluegrass. The only Virzi'ed mandolin that I've spent some time with was Peter Mix's Rigel R-100, and I was absolutely blown away by how beautifully complex the tone was.

    Tim
    "I'm not buying a banjo, I'm performing a public service by taking it off the market"

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (TimPiazza @ Feb. 07 2008, 19:17)
    I know that a lot of people don't care for the sound of a mandolin with a Virzi installed inside. But that's generally because it makes the sound quality of the instruments less suitable for bluegrass.
    The Siminoff article mentions this - that BGers look for bark, not something the Virzi enhances.

    I have never played an instrument with a Virzi, but I would like to. Someone once described it to me as making the (F style) mandolin sound more like a bowlback. Hmmm.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Virzis ended up in lots of mandolins that had nothing to do with Loar, including rank-and-file A-nothing models with oval holes, not to mention guitars, violins, and other things. I've played quite a few instruments with Virzis, and I don't think they did much of anything except excite the curiosity of some people, most of whom have never seen one or played an instrument with one in it, and certainly never observed the before and after. If an instrument was a good one, it was obvious, even with the weird thingie inside. People have taken them out in hopes of bringing a less-than-thrilling instrument to a better state, but not many people with actual direct experience have felt it really accomplished that. I personally buy the concept (it should do something!), but find the tangible evidence underwhelming.

    If you read the links John presented above, you'll see that Frank Ford chimed in on one of them, saying, "In the 1970s, I had occasion to be present at two "Virzi-ectomies." Both were removed from decidedly weaker Loar F-5s, and in both instances, the resulting instruments were decidedly weaker Loar F-5s. The conclusion at the time was that removing the Virzi did not harm the instrument, but if doing so improved the sound, the removal didn't help enough to even justify the work of taking it out. . ."

    Can you say "Emperor's New Clothes?"
    .
    ph

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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Waaaayyyy back the rumor was that Lloyd received a kick-back from the Virzi Brothers for each Tone Enhancer installed in a Gibson instrument. Check Snopes.com for this one!
    I did. There's absolutely nothing there.
    .
    ph

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    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ Feb. 08 2008, 04:10)
    I've played quite a few instruments with Virzis, and I don't think they did much of anything except excite the curiosity of some people, most of whom have never seen one or played an instrument with one in it, and certainly never observed the before and after. If an instrument was a good one, it was obvious, even with the weird thingie inside.
    I'm wearing the cafe's resident virzi apologist hat, so here are yet more updated observations.

    My Wiens does indeed have one, a "wienzi tone bemuser", to be precise.

    My playing style has evolved a bit since I first tried one of these gizmos, back when I had that wonderful Loar loan back in the early days of the archive. I used to primarily use a .72 clayton pick. Now what one of those picks will do, you'll notice, is emphasize a fair amount more treble and attack than you'll hear with a thicker one.. once you get into the 1mm wegens and up you start to have more traditional bluegrass tone.

    So two observations- I noticed firstly that the thinner picks + virzi seem to result in more of a difference than thicker ones + virzi. They seem to do something in the high register, basically. The tone I like to hear has been evolving in the direction of the bluegrass note, but not quite all the way.. so now I'm driving a .94 clayton ultem on the Wiens, so I still have some of the treble but it's not quite all gone yet.

    The second observation is that they work like a "monitor". My friend Craig was visiting with his brand-new Wiens over Christmas, and we did the blindfold tests etc. These two were very similar, built with similar woods, nearly the same time, same finish, etc.

    The "listener" could not tell them apart on pure acoustics, but we both noticed that mine (virzi) had the "out front" sound in the player's position, wheras what you heard playing the non-virzi one would be different based on position. I find with this Wiens, I'm no longer always heading for the echoey room or french doors to use as a sound mirror because I don't need to.

    I had a virzi a4 snakehead for a while too. In that oval-holed mando, it seemed to really add an awful lot of sustain and what I'd call "shimmer". I've never heard another oval hole mando that sounded like that, having had quite a few pass through in my horse-trading phase. I reckon that effect must be mostly due to the virzi.

    A virzi in an oval hole mandolin (specifically a Gibson lateral braced A or F) seems to sound "ethereal" or even echoey.

    So anyway, I think that a lot of the dramatic differences I heard at first were due in part to my thinner picks- which I think explains why my experience of them has been so dramatically different.

    The "monitor" effect is quite nice though. Mine doesn't appear to have had a harmful effect on volume, I can peel paint with this mando when I lean into the pick.

    Craig's (non-virzi) mando sounds almost exactly identical, though it's noteworthy that it wasn't louder or "sharper" or "edgier", all stuff I used to assume you'd see if you had a close pair of with/without to compare.

    The only real difference we could notice was if you were playing it, you'd hear more of that "out front" sound from the virzi one.
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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Regarding the merits of the Virzi sound enhancer

    I think one place a person can go to at least be able to compare what the device does to the a mandolin sound is Tony Williamson's "The Sound of the American Mandolin". #

    In this amazing project Tony plays a number of early (bowlback L&H, Vega & Gibson) and later (Gibson and others) mandolins, mandolas and mandocellos.

    But to this issue he plays back to back, the same tune, on a 1923 Loar (without a V) and a 1924 Loar (with a V) and two 1920's F4's one with and one without the Virzi.

    Listen and judge for yourself.

    This project is available on VHS and maybe on DVD now?
    Bernie
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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Thanks Bernie,

    For those interested, the "Sound of the American Mandolin" is for sale on Tony's site but only in VHS format.

    Additionally, in the Vintage section DanB participated in this thread and posted sound clipsof mandos with and without Virzis. I can hear a difference.

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

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    Anyone know what gauge picks were popular in the 20s?

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    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
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    Yes, roughly same as today. Stuff from a .70 on up, more towards the thinner side than we tend to use on average. Gibson sold picks, they are analagous to stuff available now
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    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Dan, your take on the quality of that effect makes complete sense to me. Not unlike the internal resonator in Selmer guitars, another gizmo I'm familiar with from hands-on experience. They were rather ill-starred, however, because they tended to come loose and rattle, and people yanked them for that reason. Two of the finest Selmers I've ever played, a gut-strung one and a steel-strung one had them, BUT:

    Quote Originally Posted by
    ...he plays back to back, the same tune, on a 1923 Loar (without a V) and a 1924 Loar (with a V) and two 1920's F4's one with and one without the Virzi. Listen and judge for yourself.
    This is the "logic" that to is NOT logic, or in any way compelling. One could play two vintage mandolins both which either did or didn't have Virzis and they could still sound that different. Perhaps comparing 100 of each might mean something. Tiny samplings and anecdotal citings just don't mean much, especially when you;re asked to listen to a recording.

    Again, I'm not saying they have no effect - how could they not? - but if they have any, it's not what most people imagine it to be. It's much more nuanced, as Dan says.
    .
    ph

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    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Paul Hostetter: This is the "logic" that to is NOT logic, or in any way compelling. One could play two vintage mandolins both which either did or didn't have Virzis and they could still sound that different. Perhaps comparing 100 of each might mean something. Tiny samplings and anecdotal citings just don't mean much, especially when you;re asked to listen to a recording.
    Couple of points -- of course you are correct -- you can't do statistical analysis on two mandolins. The better mandolin might have the Virzi -- so flip a coin.

    However, the standard you suggested -- listening to 100 examples of each -- wherein the Virzi is the only variable -- is of course, not likely to ever happen. For example, are there 100 Loars with a Virzi left in the world? #I doubt it.

    So it reduces to a philosophical issue, or a matter of opinion, or a question of faith. #Believers believe --

    However, in my personal opinion (and I have played the tape many times) both of the mandolins with the Virzi's played by Tony on that occasion sounded more "complex" with more sustain than the two without.

    For what it is worth.
    Bernie
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    So I don't hear anyone seeing enough advantage to have a virzi installed in a previously virzi-less mandolin.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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    Registered User evanreilly's Avatar
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    Then there is the interesting idea/fact that Bobby Osborne supposedly put the Virzi back in his Loar. Fact or fiction?

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    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ Feb. 08 2008, 18:54)
    Again, I'm not saying they have no effect - how could they not? - but if they have any, it's not what most people imagine it to be. It's much more nuanced, as Dan says.
    My previous virzi comments here on the cafe have been a lot more extreme in favor of, but I've now had the experience of hearing two from a really good builder on top of his game that sounded VERY close to identical.. one with and one without. It was such a similar sound that the we (the owners!) couldn't tell them apart with eyes closed and a buddy with a very similar style playing them to us.

    We literally just covered our eyes and picked them up at random, our guesses were close to 50/50 right/wrong
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