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Thread: Neck end grain ...&.... purfling cutters

  1. #1
    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    I’d like to present two questions addressed to the #mando builders #….many thanks in advance if you choose to respond.

    End grain direction of quarter sawn big leaf maple for mando neck. …what is preferred ?… vertical to fretboard as opposed to parallel ? My search has led me to both sides of the debate …. in the meantime my bandsaw is on standby.

    Are the cutters associated to the following links #recommended #for cutting purfling and bindings especially around the tight scrolls of the peghead and tight scrolled portions of the #top and back plates ?….pro’s and con’s for each would be appreciated…..or is a very sharp knife/scalpel , a keen eye and steady hand the only route to attain the detail around the tight scroll.

    http://www.leevalley.com/wood....p=33035

    http://www.stewmac.com/shopby/product/4561

    At this stage of the work ----purfling and binding---- (not there yet) #I anticipate that #I will be extremely reluctant to pass 30000 rpm’s of a saw dust spewing router blade (and a possible miscue) over a completed complex curved #red spruce arched/carved top and highly figured big leaf maple back and veneered/inlaid peghead ….running a high speed Dremmel connected to a flat #base over the complexity of arched contours of an F style mando I feel presents a #potential for irreversible error …..hence I am leaning towards the Sloane cutter (slow controlled #hand cutting is more appealing #from the standpoint of damage control….in a nut shell then what is the best route to follow.

    Forever grateful luthiers for any input…..BTW #this is my first mando build and the materials are high grade tonewoods consequently I’m trying to avoid having purchased some expensive firewood


    Mike

    ************************************************** *********

    The thousand mile journey starts with one #step…
    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

  2. #2
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    First question, bigleaf maple.
    I only use bigleaf for necks when I have to, because it is not as stiff as red or sugar maple, and I had a bigleaf neck in one of my early mandolins fail because it was too soft and too figured to be stiff enough to resist string tension and stay straight, despite a truss rod. It didn't break, but it developed a severe forward bow, and the peghead started to look like it was from a Fender guitar.
    Anyway, now days there's CF material to stiffen necks, and if I make a bigleaf neck I put CF rods in there.
    The stiffness of maple is about the same whether the grain lines are vertical to the fingerboard or parallel with the fingerboard, so that isn't really an important consideration, especially with CF in there. Quilted figure usually shows more on the flatsawn surface, and if you want the figure to be most visible to the player, you might want a flatsawn surface on the side of the neck, so you want the grain lines vertical to the fingerboard.

    I use the Sloan perfling cutter to cut for bindings, but only in the "easy" parts. The scrolls are strictly hand tools like knives, chisels, and imagination. (You wouldn't believe some of the things I say about Orville when it comes to binding those scrolls!)

    I've used the Stewmac router cutter set for guitar bodies and it works pretty well, but I still have to clean up the cuts with the purfling cutter.

  3. #3
    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input John …I value your advice highly.

    Ironically I suspected the big leaf maple to be susceptible to concave forward bow ….tell tale sign was it’s weight ….much less dense and lighter than hard maple. … my initial impression was that a 3/16 truss rod would counter the tendency to bow …….I appreciate your valued response based on your years of luthiery and the fact of your personal bad experience resulting in a problem. The figure in the wood of neck block compliments the grain and color of the curly back and sides ….consequently I feel committed to using it for aesthetic unity of figure and grain.

    A quick search of Stewmac regarding carbon fiber illustrates several examples reinforcing an electric bass guitar neck using CF….. in your experience then what X-sectional size would you recommend and my guess would be to sandwich the truss between the CF rods……do you recommend separate dado pockets for the CF rods separate from the main truss rod or would you pack them all into the single widened center slot for the truss rod . #

    Your input regarding the Sloan purfling cutter makes me feel less alone when confronted with carving the intricacies of the scrolls ……. I have yet to walk that path and your comments about your personal approach to attaining the finished effect spawns confidence needed to undertake that part of my mando build.

    >>(You wouldn't believe some of the things I say about Orville when it comes to binding those scrolls!) <<
    …. Mental visualization of how to tackle the scrolls of which I will encounter enables me to hear you clearly and sense the difficulty.

    On a side note please allow me to comment on your highly informative web site #…. I envy your artistic luthiery talent …… it was your web site (the photos of custom builds) that planted the seed for this my first attempt …. one other issue …… when this project of mine #turns the corner approaching the finishing touches I’ll be purchasing one of your custom gold plated cast tailpieces …… the open concept enabling #ease of string changes is a great functional feature and combined with the aesthetic appearance enhances the look of any #custom built mando or any mando immensely.


    Thanks again John for taking the time to steer me right….. much appreciated.

    Mike
    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

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    John, aren't you being a tad harsh by condemning an entire sub-species of fine maple because of one very bad example? I've not had any issues with big leaf, and I even like to run my necks on the flat and not the quartered orientaion...

    Every species of wood known, has issues if we choose the wrong piece.

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    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    I've never had any problems with bigleaf, either (yet!). There's quite a bit of variation in density in the species, and perhaps stiffness as well. I try to seek out the denser stuff.

    John's right, the purfling cutter will only get you so far. I mark the rabbet out in pencil, make light cuts with a #11 exacto blade, chisel out the waste down to the bottom of the exacto cut with a little dogleg chisel, and repeat. This photo may describe it a little better--I'm about a third of the way done here. You can see how far around the scroll I can get with the router, and it shows the chisel I use. After I reach the final depth I go back and clean up both sides of the rabbet with whatever tools I can in there (gouges, chisels, and knives). I'm sure everyone has their own way, but this works for me. It's one of those things that takes a long time, but it's quiet, enjoyable work.



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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Mario, I'm not condemning the species, or subspecies. I've used bigleaf since, but only carefully chosen pieces and only with precautions (CF). I only related my own experience with it and my own preference for harder maples, collaborated BTW in a conversation with Bob Benedetto who also only uses bigleaf with CF installed, after having a whole batch of guitars come back with warped bigleaf necks.
    I've read before where you've written that you've had good luck with bigleaf, and I don't doubt it. I'm just a little cautious of it, once bitten twice shy, or something like that.

    As for how to orient the CF rods in the neck, I've done it several ways, depending on whether there is an adjustable rod in the neck as well.
    With an adjustable rod, I've put two 1/8" by 3/8" CF rods in, one on either side of the adjustable rod.
    Without an adjustable rod, I've used one larger rod in the center, and I've used two thinner rods, both epoxied in the same slot in the center of the neck.
    The decisions were made on price and availability as well as whether or not it was a new neck I was building or an old neck I was stabilizing.




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    I use quite a bit of big leaf maple for mandolins and archtop guitars. Most of it is just fine but there are some trees that are not suitable for making instruments. I made some test pieces of equal size of unfigured, mildly figured heavily figured, and tightly kinky figured big leaf, then tested them for stiffness. There was very little difference in stiffness between the unfigured and mildly figured. The heavily figured piece was only slightly more flexible, but the tightly kinky figured piece was about like stiff leather and very flexible. Since I prefer to use a robust carbon fiber reinforcement I have no fear of using highly figured big leaf but I shy away from the kinky stuff. You can tell if a piece is good or not by tapping and banging on it. If it gives a dull response saw it up for overlays where strength is not a concern.

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    Registered User Red Henry's Avatar
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    With the smaller pieces of maple in mandolin bridges, the wood seems more rigid in the vertical direction if flatsawn, and more resonant (desirable for both violin and mandolin bridges) if quartersawn. Since in the neck, vertical stiffness vs. horizontal resonance may not be at issue, it seems as if vertical grain might be used for its possibly-superior bow-resistance.

    But this brings up another interesting point, too. Many folks might agree that the mandolin neck forms an integral part of the instrument's resonating system. One might think that the strings put such heavy pressure vertically that they damp vibration in that direction, and the neck would be freer to vibrate horizontally.

    Considering the neck as a pendulum can bring up considerations of the neck's length, cross-section, material, and stiffness, the peghead size, tuner weights, and so forth, as contributing to (or subtracting from) the response of the instrument as a whole. Violin makers have studied these things for years, but I haven't heard of actual empirical data gathered for mandolin. Has anyone intentionally built a mandolin with a large, heavy neck and peghead, and reduced the bulk/weight of these factors one at a time, to see what configuration gave the greatest response on that particular mandolin body?

    Red




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    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    Thank you John, Andrew, Mario, Michael and Red for your #interest in this thread ….and furthermore thanks for the informative responses that each of you have taken the time to address my questions……and thanks for posting links to your web sites …..often times I get caught up in missing seeing the trees for the forest in the sense that in past times I’ve overlooked ( in my hurried quest to get my question posted and await an answer ) the links to your personal websites which provide a close up look at your inspiring art of luthiery.

    Andrew little did I realize the click of the mouse #to link me with your web site opens the door to a world of mando build information that clarifies many issues that Siminoff in his mando manual leaves hanging…… I’ll spend a good deal of time there (your web site) for artistic inspiration #(blondes are especially inspiring …mandos i.e….. in particular #your blonde F5 fiddle back maple with the tortoise #binding) …… I ‘m mesmerized …… I know that hard work is a chief criteria for the masterpieces that all of #you custom builders have produced yet somehow I sense it goes deeper than that (read God given talent) like most artists.

    Andrew, the technical #data contained in your top and bottom plate contour #download simplifies one dimensional drill depth contouring ( i.e. viewing the top and bottom relevant to the convex #surface) ……. dumb question next #I know, #but my take is that the #plan view is read like a topo with zero being the flat underside of top/bottom plates at the junction of the ribs..

    Then for graduation of thickness hopefully you or any of the luthiers can help me here regarding what Siminoff has laid out in his mando build manual ….if you are familiar with /access to Siminoff’s drawings #12 & #13 his graduation thickness occur at 8 equidistant points from the center to outer perimeter along the lateral (width) axis yet his contour lines (four in number) do not coincide with any of #those points ……. the questions I know get dumber as I sink deeper into this discussion ……..therefore is it expected #of the reader of such a top view plan to interpolate graduations thickness at the contour lines???….or would it be expected of the reader to parallel offset the existing contour lines to create new contours to fall under the graduation points??……..probably the same difference is my guess ….anyway I hope the answer isn’t "go ask Rodger".

    Hopefully I’m not outwearing and overstaying my welcome ….I’d like to reiterate, #I am trying to avoid at some point down the road of having purchased some expensive kindling #because of uncertainty/assumption #during this prep stage which could lead to irreversible error …..consequently I’m leaving no stone unturned.

    Mike.

    ************************************************** *********
    like the man said ...."the thousand mile journey starts with a single step"




    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

  10. #10

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    "It's one of those things that takes a long time, but it's quiet, enjoyable work."

    Thanks, Andrew, for that. If there is one thing that I enjoy about building it is that! It is also the thing that will never let me be a "production" builder, I'll never give up the quiet of hand work.

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    The neck is not a pendulum, but does participate in a whole-instrument barlike bending motion. In mandolins, that mode occurs beginning at around 80 Hz, which puts it well below the frequency range of musical interest. It is more of a physicist's curiosity. There is the possibility that whole-instrument bending motions may occur at higher frequencies, in which case they could be responsible for splitting some of the higher bending and/or twisting modes of the plates into multiplets. I'm not sure about that, but I think that I have seen some indirect evdence for it. Certainly not enough to publish or make any claims about. It is on my to-do list.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Graduations don't have to be precisely copied form anything, and in fact, I believe it's not a good idea to copy graduations unless it's to learn from them. I think it's best to vary arching and graduations according to the wood.
    Luthiers all (well, maybe not all) have their own systems of graduation, and most vary it according to the wood being used, the arch being used, the sound desired etc.

    My method, simplified as it has become over the years, is something like this;

    I get the wood in hand and evaluate it's stiffness and damping properties, and from my impressions of that and the sound I want to shoot for, I make a decision on arch height and general plate thickness. I'll carve the outside of the plate to my determined arch height and then I'll carve to my target center thickness and minimum thickness from the inside. For graduations, I'm basically just going for an even graduation between center and edge, with the thickness being determined by the predetermined edge and center thicknesses.
    After that carving I'll evaluate the plate and make adjustments depending on how the plate feels and sounds, but I always leave a "spine" in a top if I need to carve it thinner. The "spine" is an area, along the string line down the center of the top where I don't carve below 4mm thick.

    Anyway, the point of all that is this; don't over-think graduations and precise thicknesses. For a first mandolin, or a first few mandolins, using approximate Loar graduations is a good idea in terms of learning how to do the work, and establishing a base line from which to develop your own methods if desired.
    I believe Adrian's "Hogo" Loar plans are the most accurate and easiest to work from to get those graduations.

  13. #13
    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    Thanks again John for the encouragement and walking me through the critical steps.

    My impression regarding Rodger’s thickness criteria was that the measurements he presented were inflexible or very near inflexible……it’s assuring to know then, that #there is room for deviating from the false sense of etched- in- stone precision that I errantly #assumed.

    >>>After that carving I'll evaluate the plate and make adjustments depending on how the plate feels and sounds, but I always leave a "spine" in a top if I need to carve it thinner. The "spine" is an area, along the string line down the center of the top where I don't carve below 4mm thick. <<<

    John, is the purpose of the " spine" your ace in the hole in the sense that to lower the tap tone #you have this area to manipulate/reduce ……. somehow after having read your web site my understanding is that you do not put any emphasis on tap toning in which case #perhaps then my question is redundant.

    Like I said upfront thanks for guiding me through (which for me) are uncharted waters.

    Mike
    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

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    Registered User amowry's Avatar
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    I'd go with John's advice about not getting too bogged down in copying Simioff's exact graduations. I see what you mean about his contours, and I'm not sure why he didn't draw the contours to match the thickness noatations. I guess if you wanted to accurately follow the plans you would indeed have to interpolate that thicknesses at the contours, or (easier) draw new contours at the thickness markings, following the general shape of the the neighboring contours.

    I'm glad you found my site useful, Mike. You have it right about my contour maps-- the "heights" of the surface of the plates are measured from the flat back of the plate, where it would rest on the rim assembly. There's no information contained about the graduation, only the arching.




  15. #15
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Mike there have been numerous threads on tap tones and several of the builders just do not tune the plates to a particular pitch.
    Bill Snyder

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    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    Thanks Andrew #for your input in seconding John’s advice ……. little by little I’m beginning to shake loose this straight jacket I have subconsciously placed myself in.

    Thanks Bill ….my afternoon (maybe also evening) project will be to whittle away through the archives of past posts to locate the various luthier views on tap tuning …… too many one sided ( pro/for #tap tuning) opinions especially violin luthiers have led me to believe that was the only route ….perhaps I shouldn’t be comparing oranges to apples in the sense that mandos & viols are as much unlike as they are alike ……anyway I’m all ears ……open minded and soakin’ up all this info being offered for the mere asking of the luthiers /searching archives……the paralysis by analysis is about to terminate …… I’m itchin’ #to reach over and plug in the bandsaw, the router, the drill press and perhaps even the coffee pot. ……problem is (and good problem it is) is #(sound confusing ?)# #I can’t drag myself away from the info loaded mando café……the saw dust spewing #mechanical gear is stayin’ on standby another day or two.



    Mike
    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (alt_2ooning @ Feb. 05 2008, 14:13)
    John, is the purpose of the " spine" your ace in the hole in the sense that to lower the tap tone you have this area to manipulate/reduce
    No, the spine is structural. I've seen too many tops fail by "folding" between the bridge and the tailpiece, or the neck "folding" forward because of the top sinking at the edge of the head block. The reason for those failures is usually too little structure in the top arch as it goes from head block to tail block. The pull of the strings is "trying" to compress that arch, while the string pressure on the bridge is "trying" to mash the center of the arch down.

    As you gathered from the info in my web site, I don't do a lot of tap tuning, but instead "gauge" the stiffness of a top by twisting and flexing, and comparing the stiffness to the weight. Leaving the spine thicker allows me to lighten or thin a top in other places without weakening the string line area so that it, hopefully, stays just as resistant to string pressure as it is lightened or thinned.

  18. #18
    Registered User alt_2ooning's Avatar
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    Thanks John ...... your immensely helpful tips are etched forever in my mind ....... I wish to open a new thread regarding the Verzi tonal enhancer ......hopefully if I'm not encroaching on your valuable time you could comment when time and convenience permits.

    Regards Mike
    Money will buy a pretty good dog, but it'll never buy the wag of his tail.

  19. #19

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    For general discussion I consider bigleaf unacceptable for necks in all cases. That being said I have of course used it, and done so quite successfully.

    As mentioned the key is carbon fibre.

    If using soft maple for a neck my recomended reinforcement would be two 1/8 inch bars running on either side of an adjustable truss rod. Run the carbon all the way thru until it exits the plane of the peghead and sand it flush before adding the peghead veneer

    The neck will be bullet proof

    One huge word of caution, many years ago the factory I worked at was and is the main Ibanez guitar factory. Ibanez wanted a run of archtop jazz guitars made with bigleaf quilted maple necks and bodys.

    The backs and sides went ok but upon setup a number of the necks proved to be total junk. They were built with a traditional truss rod accessable from the head. The neck wood just kept compressing under the nut washer, no matter how tight you adjusted the rod the bow wouldnt change and the washer just kept imbedding itself further and further

    If I were ever to HAVE to used big leaf ( that wont happen) I would use the carbon as mentioned above and a non traditional rod like the double rods that work with themself and dont compress the neck

    Scott

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    Hey, Alt... nice avatar. Looks very familiar.

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