Stainless Steel Fret Wire

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-12-2004, 8:23am

Just received a sample of SS Fret wire. It is the Banjo sized material. I know that Warmouth Guitars uses SS on some of their necks and encapusulate the fret tang in Cyano rather than driving them.
Any one thinking about trying it out? Let me know and
perhaps we can share info...Gavin
....The word is that they are good for the life of the instrument...

**Bandersnatch Reverb** · Jun-12-2004, 7:38pm

I've been playing with stainless fretwire. Its a soft alloy, easily dressable. Perhaps a bit harder to get a high polish on. A dremel and 1" felt wheel ought to do wonders in that respect tho (I've not tried yet).

Some small things to consider - its harder than wound strings. You can wear the windings thru if you leave the strings on long enough. It must be very carefully radiused as its pretty springy, far more so than standard fretwire. Warmoth presses all the frets, not only stainless. I dont see why you couldn't hammer stainless, but I like the idea of glued and pressed frets anyway. Hide glue rather than cyano for me though.

Also gotta say, I've never fretted a mandolin, only guitar... so your milage may vary.

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-12-2004, 7:40pm

I can't understand why no one has responded to this post. It seems to me that this is an obvious positive move in the right direction regarding the problem of fret wear. I suppose my question is, are there any builders out there who would like to investigate the pros and cons of using this system?...G

**sunburst** · Jun-12-2004, 7:48pm

Yes, I am interested in finding out about and experimenting with harder fret wire.
I hadn't posted because I have no experience with it.
I did give some samples of some old fret wire to a guy who was trying to get set up to make stainless wire, the older wire seems to me to be harder and longer lasting, so I gave him some samples to check the hardness, but never heard anything from him.

I usually use a fairly small wire for mandos, and would be interested in finding a similar size in stainless, as well as banjo and guitar sizes.

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-12-2004, 7:50pm

bandersnatch reverb
Check out the Warmouth site...they say that they use a custom Cyano to incapsulate the SS fret...G....and by the way, thanks for your input...The windings of the std. wound string is not the problem, it is the hardened E and A that causes the fret wear. Since most of the playing is done on these two sets, it would definately be an asset. The Stainless Steel that is used is non magnetic and is a 300 series which is quite tough and much more durable than a nickel brass alloy...G

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-12-2004, 7:52pm

Sunburst,
Check out Allied Lutherie...They have the item in Banjo size....Gav.

**Steven Stone** · Jun-12-2004, 8:22pm

I've discussed stainless fret wire at length with Ken Parker, of Parker Guitars.

He was the first to use it sucessfully and still has patents on it's use. To paraphrase Ken "If it is soft enough to form into tangs it's no better than nickle silver."

The only stainless that is hard enough to warrant its use CAN NOT be made into tangs, so it MUST be glued onto a phenolic fretboard.

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-12-2004, 9:40pm

Steven
I don't think the concept of being able to be formed into tangs is correct. "Nickel Silver" is " Copper = Zinc = a % of Nickel[18%] Stainless Steel is an Alloy of Iron, Nickel and Chromium in varring amounts. It doesn't seem to me that what you are saying is correct. In terms of wear resistance, Brass is very poor. With the addition of Nickel it becomes better. The wear on frets is not an abrasive wear but rather an impact reaction and I would suspect that a 300 series Stainless Steel would be far superior to a "Nickel Silver" alloy...Just my opinion..but I think it is worth the effort to check it out...G

**Brian Aldridge** · Jun-12-2004, 9:55pm

Gavin, I have a mandolin that has SS frets in it. I really don't see the string windings being cut more by the SS frets than regular frets have done. They do seem to be holding up better than regular frets, but I have not had the mandolin long enough to speak on that from experience yet. I suspect they will last much longer though. I hope the guy who installed them will speak up on this subject, as I am quite interested. I won't drag him into this by naming him though.

**dave waite** · Jun-12-2004, 10:05pm

I am not a builder or repair person, but as a player I am very interested in this thread. I find it hard to believe that there is not an improvement on the standard brass/nickel fret material. I don't buy the too hard to put tangs in, too springy, or too hard to form to a radius line. It just doesn't make sense. As far as excessive string wear.....Big deal. Strings cost under 10.00 a set for most they should be changed long before they wear through anyway. At 300 + shipping for a refret job every couple years, I for one will be looking for someone to go stainless for my next time around. Hope one of you knowlegable & capable fellows pursue this. I'll be watching! Thanks
Dave

**Steven Stone** · Jun-12-2004, 10:14pm

[I don't think the concept of being able to be formed into tangs is correct.]

Fine. According to Ken, he did the experiments and found that if the steel could be formed into tangs, it wasn't appreciably harder than the best nickle silver materials available.

But hey, don't listen to me - try it yourself. worst that can happen is that you waste a lot of time replicating Ken's research.

**Michael Lewis** · Jun-12-2004, 10:58pm

Lets hear all about it. I'm in the same situation as Sunburst, no experience with it, but interested. Also interested in the old style material that was used by Gibson in the teens and twenties. It's not stainless but it is pretty hard and wears well.

**Bandersnatch Reverb** · Jun-13-2004, 12:54am

Gavin, I know the E and A (or any unwound string, a la gitfiddle... G B E) will wear nickel silver frets. What I was saying is now the frets wear the strings! With the soft windings being divoted by the stainless fretwire if you leave them on the instrument long enough.

http://www.alliedlutherie.com/fretwire.htm

Look there. Stainless fretwire has tangs. At least the stuff I got did. Also, springup is more of a problem with the wider and perhaps more radiused guitar necks. I dont think it would be such a problem with a stainless wire on a mandolin neck. However.... there is a growing school of luthery that supports pressed and glued frets as being a better way to go.

In that link above, it says that dressing and crowning are a pita. This is perhaps so, since my only experience called for just a bare kissing of the tops, and just a rounding over of the trailing edge and polish. I used 800 and 1200 papers for the polish. A lot of it. Dark abrasive on that felt wheel would have been better, but I didn't have and guards for the fingerboard, so it all got done by hand.

Thats it. One refret with stainless, I'm no expert, but I've got a little bit of experience with the stuff. BTW, you cant tell the difference when you're playing, its a non-issue.

**Brian Aldridge** · Jun-13-2004, 7:06am

OK, here's a Q for those of you who are in the business of building/repair as a major or sole source of your income; Re-frets are a fairly common job, one that keeps recurring, and one that pays fairly decently (not complaining). Then you have the company that produces the fretwire. The old Gibson wire lasts many times longer that the modern wire. It seems that the companies who make the wire would be in a way cutting their own throats by making good wire that lasts. What impact would good wire have on a luthier's income? Would good wire be harder to work with? I am just throwing out some possible objections for us expecting to see better wire.

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-13-2004, 8:03am

Michael,
The only non ferrous alloy I can think of being used in the early 20th century, would be Aliminum Bronze. I don't know if could have been roll formed or not. The stuff is very, very difficult to machine. One of its uses was to provide solid wear bearings on the ends of the railway axles, the main journal bearings being given abundant end play..G

**sunburst** · Jun-13-2004, 11:05am

Originally Posted by (Brian @ June 13 2004, 08:06)

It seems that the companies who make the wire would be in a way cutting their own throats by making good wire that lasts. What impact would good wire have on a luthier's income? Would good wire be harder to work with? I am just throwing out some possible objections for us expecting to see better wire.

Harder wire would probably cut down on straight ahead fret jobs, but sometimes you have to refret in order to correct neck problems or to follow up other repairs, and that wouldn't change.
I've heard harder wire is harder to work with, so an up charge would probably be in order, partially offsetting the reduction in fret jobs, and besides, I can't imagine a time when there aren't plenty of fret jobs to be done.

I'm told that the main reason fret wire is not harder is because of the machinery used to manufacture it. As the material gets harder the machinery wears faster. The compromise is set for maximum machine longevity rather than for maximum fret longevity. Obviously, harder wire would have to be more expensive, but I'm sure I have a lot of customers that would be willing to pay the difference.

The guy I talked to and supplied with samples was experimenting with laser cutting of the fret wire, so the hardness might not have much affect on the production process. I suspect he's not having much success and that's why we're not hearing anything.

Regarding using adhesives or glues for fretting, that was sort of "all the rage" 10 or 15 years ago and has largely fallen from favor because those musicians with the golden ears claim to prefer the sound of standardly driven or pressed frets.
I'm pretty sure there would be those who could hear the difference and would prefer the softer fret wire for the sound as well.

**Bandersnatch Reverb** · Jun-13-2004, 1:06pm

I dont know how many companies are actually making fretwire, as opposed to putting their name on it, but certainly, worldwide, there cannot be that many actual fretwire factories. On the other hand, build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door. A nice saying but what they left off is the part about how even a rumor of a better mousetrap will get a good size group of folks interested.

As far as I'm concerned... all fretting is a pain in the keister, so the stainless wire only changes what I already don't like to a matter of degree. If I dont have to REfret, then I'm ahead of the game.

**Mario Proulx** · Jun-13-2004, 1:17pm

I have zero experience with stainless frets, and am also curious.

But, I do have experience with metals and machining.

There are countless formulations of stainless steel, ranging from soft and maleable to extremely hard and unworkable.

Fret wire is manufactured by pulling a round wire through a set of dies to form the shape we know as fret wire.

The dies must be harder than the wire being drawn through them. There comes a point where with hard stainless, dies probably cannot be made hard enough without becoming brittle.

I believe what Ken Parker has found is that any stainless steel that is soft enough to be drawn provides no appreciable wear advantage when used as frets. In other words, if it's soft enough to be made into tanged fret wire, it won't be much harder than nickel silver fret wire.

I'm sure there's still more to it than that, but I'm also sure that covers the biggest reason for it.

Mario

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-13-2004, 2:24pm

I think what has to be kept in mind is that the wear on a fret is not abrasive wear but rather the impact of the string on the fret that causes the deformation. I suppose that the hardness is a critical factor to impact wear, however the ability of the alloy to resist this type of deformation is the critical factor as well as hardness. I am certainly going to try this material on my next fret job and while it may take a long time to give results they will be forth coming.
Something to consider is the method of securing the fret in place. The use of a Cyano acrylate adhesive is a good starting point. As you all know the material is extreemly hard when cured and as far as I know does not shrink. It is also heat sensitive so it can be removed with relative ease....Well worth the investigation...g

**Martin Jonas** · Jun-14-2004, 4:09am

With this discussion, I was wondering whether it wouldn't be possible to use harder alloys for vintage-style bar frets compared to modern shape fret wire. The cross-section is much more regular and has no narrow protrusions. Of course, there may not be enough fretboards around any more with notches for bar frets to make it worthwhile to produce a hard bar fret wire.

Martin

**GTison** · Jun-14-2004, 8:24am

not a luthier. but ... since the wear is mostly on the plain steel strings( E,A). does the hardness of the string affect the wear of the fret? Seems I read in FRETS mag. years ago that frets were made of material slightly harder than the string. But since GHS and other string mfg. make Stainless strings Shouldn't the frets be harder? As a player I do wonder about the sound though. My D strings currently do wear from contact with the frets if left long enough. Persue the idea of the stainless fret! We refret customers are ready. I've had my gibson for about a year and I can see the frets wearing a good bit under the E&A strings. So I am thinking about frets.

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-16-2004, 11:32am

Not having a Rockwell Hardness Tester, I used the same concept to give some indication of the relative hardness between the SS fret wire and that of the 18% nickel brass.
In the photograph the SS wire is the bottom image. The photo is far from good but the indication is that the SS is the harder of the two.
What I used was a HSS spring loaded centre punch using the same setting for both...G

**Darryl Wolfe** · Jun-16-2004, 11:54am

I can't add appreciably to this great thread, but here are some of my thoughts.

I have a brand new SS fret Warmoth neck on my Jazz Bass. #The frets feel great and ring brighter. #I see zero wear on fret or string yet, but it's a bit too soon to tell.

The old Gibson wire wears incredibly well.
I believe the material is the same as that used on the tailpiece covers and bridge wheels. #Original frets acquire a green and or yellow tarnish. #They sound much harder/clinkier when you drop them on a hard surface.

I have some nickel/silver-German Silver material that I am making tailpiece covers out of. #It's my understanding that there is actually no silver in it. That material seems to be much much harder than modern fret wire. #I'm thinking that modern fret wire actually has a high silver content in it.

I certainly think stainless steel would emulate the older fretwire and would be a positive move

Any feedback or correction to these observations

**Steve Stahl** · Jun-16-2004, 1:36pm

Originally Posted by (f5journl @ June 16 2004, 12:54)

I have some nickel/silver-German Silver material that I am making tailpiece covers out of. #It's my understanding that there is actually no silver in it. That material seems to be much much harder than modern fret wire. #I'm thinking that modern fret wire actually has a high silver content in it.

Fretwire, often referred as german silver, actually contains no silver at all and it is manufactured from brass and nickel.
http://www.gitaarwerk.net/info.php?id=26

**Gavin Baird** · Jun-16-2004, 1:37pm

Darryl
I think that you will find that German Silver really does not have any silver in it at all. The term "Silver" I believe is that the alloy of copper and zinc, which is brass, with an addition of varying %'s of nickel, produce a stronger alloy and as well gives the polished surface a silvery colour. As I indicated in an earlier post, an alloy of copper, zinc, tin and the addition of aluminum produces just about the hardest alloy I know of in the non ferrous alloys.This is called "Aluminum Bronze".