Flatbacks of note

**brunello97** · Jan-18-2008, 11:02pm

Martin,

Thanks for the informative (and personal) post. Below is the only Puntolillo mandolin image I have-just of a label. I've found numerous examples of their guitars, but would appreciate any images of their mandolins. (Even if we wind up cross-pollinating a few threads.

Mick

**Bill Snyder** · Jan-18-2008, 11:17pm

I am not sure just how noteworthy it is but here is a decent looking old flatback.

**brunello97** · Jan-19-2008, 12:25pm

Bill, I love these flatbacks and this is a nice example: rosewood back, bound fingerboard, compensated bridge. I'm sure it sounds quite good. The prices on these are creeping up as well. I have/have had a few of these types and enjoy them. I finally picked up a Martin A from the era to compare and contrast.

Mick

**Bruce Clausen** · Jan-19-2008, 12:53pm

I've been enjoying this conversation-- thanks for initiating it, Bill!

Mick, since it seems you've been studying these instruments a bit, do you notice characteristic differences in sound between bent-top and flat-top models of flatbacks? #I'm playing mostly on a modern flattop (the sort with a bit of induced arch), and wondering what I might gain or lose with a bent top. #Thanks for any insights you (or anyone else out there) can offer.

BC

**Jim Garber** · Jan-19-2008, 2:00pm

Originally Posted by (brunello97 @ Jan. 19 2008, 00:02)

Thanks for the informative (and personal) post. Below is the only Puntolillo mandolin image I have-just of a label. I've found numerous examples of their guitars, but would appreciate any images of their mandolins. (Even if we wind up cross-pollinating a few threads.

Mick:
That label is from a bowlback. I would post pics of it but this is a flatback thread.

Also that one, from eBay in April of last year, was basically a basket case, with the bowl ribs mostly separated.

**jlatorre** · Jan-19-2008, 2:57pm

Originally Posted by (billkilpatrick @ Jan. 16 2008, 19:04)

"hopf" is a name i've seen mentioned and "framus" ...

FWIW, Framus is the trade name of a large stringed instrument factory in Germany. It's still around. A lot of these instruments came into the US by virtue of its being a major supplier of instruments to US Army and Air Force PXs.

My first guitar was a 3/4 size steel-string Framus (it was not very good). I also had a 12-string of theirs that had a nice tone, but the neck was way too weak for the stress and eventually bowed beyond repair. My brother owns a classical Framus that also has a good tone.

All these guitars had a "zero fret"which was one of Framus's signature details. I don't know about their mandos, though.

**Jim Garber** · Jan-19-2008, 3:41pm

I will post my "mother-daughter" Leland Brilliantones here once again. Piccolo/Soprano and standard.

**billkilpatrick** · Jan-19-2008, 3:47pm

there's some fine looking women in your family, james.

**brunello97** · Jan-19-2008, 4:24pm

[QUOTE= (jgarber @ Jan. 19 2008, 15:00)]

Originally Posted by brunello97,Jan. 19 2008, 00:02

That label is from a bowlback. I would post pics of it but this is a flatback thread.

Yes, I knew this was the case with the Puntolillo, my other pictures of it are kind of grim. I thought to squeeze in a plug for the maker, since he name was up. #Did he make any flatbacks (besides guitars) that anyone is aware of?

Mick

Always nice to see the Lelands, I've been playing mine a lot lately since getting on my Carolan jag. #The rosewood back is a mess and is going to have to get some attention soon.

**Martin Jonas** · Jan-19-2008, 5:48pm

Originally Posted by (brunello97 @ Jan. 19 2008, 17:24)

Did he make any flatbacks (besides guitars) that anyone is aware of?

Not that I'm aware of -- my Majestic does of course have his brand name attached to it, but I would bet my bottom dollar on Gaetano having nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Another observation that may go into this thread is that for some reason or other, all of the non-carved flatbacks that have passed through my hands (two waldzithers, one Otwin, one Mid-Mo and the Majestic) have round soundholes, rather than oval. That's rare in bowlbacks (there are some round-hole Calaces) and unheard-of in carved mandos.

Martin

**Jim Garber** · Jan-19-2008, 11:01pm

Speaking of flatbacks with bad rosewood backs... that reminds me of this one of mine, with "Amati" inlaid on the pickguard.The only other I found was at a music store online and their had a Vega label. I asked around and no one ever heard of it or any connection to Vega. It is currently in the pile to refurbish.

**mandogerry** · Jan-20-2008, 7:36am

Bill sure is right in saying this about his Mid-Mo flatback M-4:

"this flatback from mid-missouri (m-4) should have been placed at the beginning of the thread - a benchmark imho for pure simplicity in design, quality of craftsmanship and excellent sound reproductio:... first amongst equals in flat fellowship. "

But he left out the best part -- a photo of the back! Here is the back of my Big Muddy M-4 (the reborn Mid-Mo). It is a variety of rosewood that is just as lovely as the tone of the little fellow.

**Eugene** · Jan-20-2008, 9:00am

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Jan. 20 2008, 00:01)

Speaking of flatbacks with bad rosewood backs... that reminds me of this one of mine, with "Amati" inlaid on the pickguard.The only other I found was at a music store online and their had a Vega label. I asked around and no one ever heard of it or any connection to Vega. It is currently in the pile to refurbish.

That's an odd piece, Jim. The scratchplate and floral inlay look tremendously Bruno-like (who, of course, didn't build their own stuff). The headstock strikes me as being in Washburn's profile. The binding smacks of Regal to me.

**Eugene** · Jan-20-2008, 9:02am

Originally Posted by (mandogerry @ Jan. 20 2008, 08:36)

But he left out the best part -- a photo of the back! Here is the back of my Big Muddy M-4 (the reborn Mid-Mo). It is a variety of rosewood that is just as lovely as the tone of the little fellow.

What species? Is it cocobolo (Dalbergia retusa) by any chance?

**mandogerry** · Jan-20-2008, 9:50am

In reply to the question about my Big Muddy's rosewood back:

I believe it is a Bolivian wood known as "Pau Ferro" or "Morado" -- probably not exactly the same as the rosewood of old, but the term "rosewood" these days seems to stretch to include several varieties of wood. There have been some other threads discussing this issue, I recall. If you already know the Latin term, you are probably ahead of me on this one! Whatever it is, it has a rich sweet tone indeed, after only a couple of months of daily playing. And the grain pattern on mine is a real beauty.

**mandogerry** · Jan-20-2008, 9:56am

Can't let all of those years of high school Latin go to waste. Morado/Pau Ferro does not = Cocobolo/Dalbergia retusa. Its Latin term is, according to a couple of Web sources, Machaerium scleroxylon.

**brunello97** · Jan-20-2008, 10:06am

Pau ferro (from my limited research) is not from the proper rosewood (Dalbergia) family and hence not directly related to the cocobolo(s). #I've seen a few references to its species name, Machaerium #schleroxylum, appearing the most often. # The name Caesalpinia echinata shows up for pau ferro often, but it seems that is referring to ersatz rosewood used for fretboards, bindings, etc.

I am by no means any kind of authority on this stuff. #Credit goes to Paul H and to Eugene for working to leverage in a specificity to our conversations about woods and opting for the Latin names to help avoid common-names confusions. #If anybody can straighten out my above postulations, I'd appreciate it.

Mick

Beautiful wood, on the Mid/Big MuddyMo. #I'm glad to see them rising Phoenix-like again. I've #never played one but appreciate their design elegance and obviously am impressed by the earnest testimonials. #I hope I get the chance one day.

**Steve Cat** · Jan-20-2008, 10:27am

I don't want to sound like I'm critical of anybody's mando but I just upgraded from my cheapie, yes it is all relative. I was down to the Eastman 504 and the Big Muddy M-4W, with the wider neck, both about the same price. The Eastman was a beautiful instrument with a very nice finish but sounded thin compared to the Big Muddy. Also after using the wider neck for a while I really got to like it. In all fairness the picture of the Big Muddy back look much nicer than they do in real life. I wish I liked the sound of the Eastman better because of its violin vibe, I don't know what I'd call the Big Muddy vibe, maybe Home Depot. But the sound of the Big Muddy was so full there was no contest for me, for Jethro Burns stuff, Classical, and Ry Cooder chording, this mandpo is now my new mistress.

**brunello97** · Jan-20-2008, 10:51am

Here one of the nicer looking Stromberg-Voisinet FBs. Sold for the very reasonable $162 on the ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=009

I never really liked the headstocks on these, but I rather like the overall vibe of this one. Nice looking rosewood back.

(I'm just wondering, as this thread begins to gain traction-to my great pleasure- whether its inclusion in the "C-M-R" section is the most functional. Perhaps if located in the 'Vintage' section we might avoid some of the probable overlaps of discussion and information. Is it possible for Scott to move an entire thread?)

Mick

**Jeff Hildreth** · Jan-20-2008, 10:59am

Caesalpinia echinata is a "brazilwood" AKA pernambuco and not pao ferro (ironwood)
Boivian rosewood is also known as morado and pao ferro and about 20 others.. still not a rosewood.

I have quite a bit of it I have gathered over the years.. and bought under several names at wildly varying prices..
nice stuff.

**Eugene** · Jan-20-2008, 11:30am

"Rosewood" in itself is not a family. #Believe it or not, rosewoods are of the bean family, which is tremendous and diverse, spanning the mighty rosewoods, locusts, and acacias to the diminutive peas and clovers. #True rosewoods are of the genus Dalbergia. #I suspect the Big Muddy pictured here is backed in Machaerium scleroxylon, yet another bean to produce decent timber. #However, in spite of it sometimes getting branded "Bolivian rosewood", I don't consider pau ferro to be a true rosewood. #Personally, I think the hype surrounding the term "rosewood" (and its resultant over-application to any darkish tropical wood with darker figure in order to sell more timber) is not entirely warranted.

**Jeff Hildreth** · Jan-20-2008, 11:41am

Note that C A V I U N A is the latest buzzword in the world of Spanish made classical guitars

it means absolutely nothing and encompasses any wood that looks like "rosewood"

This came about after the brazilioan rosewodd busts.
Joke is Spanish makers had been using "caviuna" and calling it brazilian for years.
Now buyers do not and cannot know what wood is what due to the hyping and marketing by wood dealers such as Maderas Barber and others.
Some makers, whether knowingly or unknowingly ,perpetuating the myth by using anything and calling it what sells. Ergo C A V I U N A !
or another favorite.. RIO rosewood...

I am in the camp of looks good, sounds good.. use it.

CAVIUNA Coming soon to America along with A C A J O U , anything that looks like "mahogany"

**brunello97** · Jan-20-2008, 11:48am

An interesting link to a Portuguese language wikipedia site on Pau-Ferro.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau-ferro

Seems potentially useful to confuse ourselves with the Bolivian 'Rosewood'/Morado (aka purple) nom de bois rather than getting into the whole Mata of ironwoods. #Or to beef up our latin.

A shame that so much of the true rosewood was decimated. #The older bowlbacks and some fbs in my modest herd have such a amazing array of colors and grain patterns. #

Mick

**Bruce Clausen** · Jan-20-2008, 1:07pm

Cocobolo back (Laughlin mandolin).

**mandogerry** · Jan-20-2008, 1:18pm

I'd probably be upset If I thought that Mike Dulak was making a fortune by calling his M-4's "rosewood" instead of "ersatz rosewood not to be confused with the endangered true rosewood." But, frankly, I don't know how the man makes a penny on his instruments.

Whatever the wood is, the M-4 sounds great (and mine truly does look as good in person as in the photo). If I get tired of playing it today, and making my other more costly mandos jealous, I should settle in with a big bowl of Häagen-Dazs, the "Scandinavian" ice cream born in New Jersey.