Gibson master model with no second label

**tnranger** · Jan-09-2008, 1:03pm

I just got off the phone with the Guitar Showcase in CA. Thay have the 1997 F5V Gibson Master Model recently listed in the classifieds. According to Andy (nice guy, by the way), the mandolin has no second signature label. The only label has Ramsey as the signature in pencil. He could not see a first name.

Would Charlie Derrington not have signed all MMs after 1997? Makes me think this is not a 1997, or is not a Gibson.

Any ideas?

**djweiss** · Jan-09-2008, 1:17pm

I don't believe this is a "Master Model" as in Gibson's current top-of-the line model. I don't believe those came off the line until into the 21'st century...

**Givson** · Jan-09-2008, 1:35pm

This has been previously discussed. #All of the Gibson F-5 mandolins as well as the A-5s made from the 70s, 80s and 90s had the words "Master Model" in their labels. #They are not the same as the current F-5 "Master Model". A 1997 Gibson F-5 or F-5L would have been made by the former Flatiron company in Bozeman, MT. It had a bolt-on neck and lacquer finish. The F-5 Gibson currently known as the "Master Model", which closely replicates the original Loar-signed F5 model, was not made until 2001 or so.

**Tony Sz** · Jan-09-2008, 1:39pm

There were a few of the current F-5 Master Models, as well as a few prototypes, produced as early as late 2000.

**pjlama** · Jan-09-2008, 1:43pm

It's a varnish Fern

**tnranger** · Jan-09-2008, 3:29pm

Actually, it has a flowerpot.

**Tom C** · Jan-09-2008, 3:35pm

I am not positive but they may have made F5V before Charlie signed them and the ones Charlie signed has the "V" in the serial number which I believe is starting around year 2001.

**Big Joe** · Jan-09-2008, 4:07pm

This would have to be a Montana made instrument and it would have the bolt neck as compared to the MM with the dovetail. This is not one of Charlie's products. It may have been a copy of the Monroe model that was produced in the 90's. Part of them ahd varnish and part had lacquer.

**pjlama** · Jan-10-2008, 1:15am

Mmmm... sounds cool whatever it is.

**f5loar** · Jan-10-2008, 10:41am

All this does not explain why no signature label. The MT still had the signature model by someone. The signature label reissued in the 1971 F5 remains today in the F5 and F5 Fern as well as other models. If this one shows no signs of the label having fallen out(even Loar labels fell out over time)then it's possible this was a 2nd. They did let out 2nds back then and I never saw a 2nd with a signature label. It should have a 2nd somewhere on it like on the label somewhere.

**Big Joe** · Jan-10-2008, 10:45pm

During the Montana period they did not always use two labels. In addition, they are held in with an adhesive. This adhesive can come loose with being very dry or wet. They do fall out sometimes. Why this mandolin has no label is anyone's guess. Sometimes life happens. Maybe someone removed it?

**KitLarson** · Jan-27-2010, 8:08pm

Originally Posted by Big Joe

During the Montana period they did not always use two labels. In addition, they are held in with an adhesive. This adhesive can come loose with being very dry or wet. They do fall out sometimes. Why this mandolin has no label is anyone's guess. Sometimes life happens. Maybe someone removed it?

Hi I bought that mandolin in 2008 and the pictures do not do it justice,M Heiden refretted this one and set it up,it is loud and has a nice sound,Michal says typical Gibson sound bar and held back sound<opinion> the side binding is triple same as Bill Monroes is,the number after the name inside has a 12/16 that I takee as 12 out of 16 Gibson does not want to give too much information,says serial # is 1997 and will not say anymore. Guitar Showcase shipped this Mandolin too me saying that no second signed lable sort of slowed the sale down a bit,it arrived as sayed<Andy> yes very nice guy with one scratch in my opinion its a Gibson says Nashville built and a winner,me not being a expert and all like it a lot and so does everybody else! thanks dc

**Big Joe** · Jan-27-2010, 10:21pm

Gibson does not retain information on its instruments by serial number. About the only thing it tells the company is when it was built and maybe who it was sold to (the dealer). Even that is a newer thing. They do not keep records of what model the serial number represents or any custom or unusual features. It would not indicate the finish or trim level either. This does not mean it was not a great instrument, just that they don't keep that kind of information.

It should have been made in Montana but the corporate offices were in Nashville so it would not be unusual for the label to indicate Gibson company in Nashville. I am glad you found a great mandolin. I should also mention that the varnish used then is not the same as the varnish used during the Derrington era, but again, that does not mean it is not a great instrument... just different from the Derrington mandolins.

**KitLarson** · Jan-28-2010, 12:44pm

Hi I thank you kindly how would one tell the differance on the bolted neck versus the dovetail joint? And as per the label you are right the paper was almost falling out when it arrived thanks for help dc