Robot mandolin ?!?!?

[jim_n_virginia]

I see Gibson is finally unveiling "The Robot Guitar"
http://www.gibson.com/robotguitar/index.html

Pretty interesting idea and a great idea ... thats is IF it works. They say there are tiny motors inside the instrument that are hooked to computers that loosen and tighten the strings according to vibration.

Well if those computers are anything like the one on my desk they will work PERFECTLY all the way up until I need it the most like I am on stage peforming for all my friends and family!

No seriously, I wonder how long it will be if the "Robot Guitar" (I wonder what marketing genius thought of THAT name? sheesh?) is a hit how long before there is a self tuning mandolin?

Would you want one? I mean I kinda don't mind tuning my mandolin. It takes me about 30 seconds to tune except when changing strings. But I'd probably want one just to check it out.

Hey I wonder how long it will be before they have computerized player guitars and mandolins much like the old player pianos? Then with a self tuner and a self player we could all sound like Bill Monroe, Bush and Grisman and all we'd have to do is hold the mandolion and dance around and look cool like Chris Thile!

[JimD]

I've said this before. I think this is a very bad idea.

I have already seen "musicians" who are so reliant upon electronic tuners that they can't tune by ear. How lazy or incompetent does one need to be to have an instrument that tunes itself.

[John Flynn]

So I guess you're saying piano players must all be lazy and incompetent, since they actually have to hire someone to tune thier instruments.

[JimD]

So I guess you're saying piano players must all be lazy and incompetent, since they actually have to hire someone to tune thier instruments.

Pianos:
-- 88 pitches
-- doubled strings for some, tripled for others
--equal temperament tuned either by hearing and counting beats or with a scope
--adjustments made for inharmonicity (stretched tuning)

Guitars:
--6 strings
--equal temperament easily accomplished by comparing open to fretted strings

Let's not compare apples and oranges.

[JeffS]

Half the fun at a Nickel Creek concert is watching Sean Watkins fight his electronic tuner. A guitar like this would kill most of their jokes.

[steve V. johnson]

When I heard about this bit (after I stopped laughing...) I thought of players, like, say... Ani Di Franco & Joni Mitchell for example, who play in a bunch of different tunings. # If/when this thing works it could really open up sonic possibilites for players who do stuff like that. #

There's no telling how well or poorly Gibson (et al) can actually implement this stuff in the instruments and whether this version will be useful at all ...

At our Irish session last night a listener was asking me about guitar playing and had read about the Gibson. #I play with my guitar tuned in DADGAD, and this fellow brought up the Gibson tuning guitar and said something like, 'Well that would make it easier for me to learn DADGAD. I could play along with a recording in standard tuning, then push the button and try it in DADGAD, I'd like that...' # #I wouldn't have thought of using the thing that way. #

In that sense it reminded me of the Fretlight guitars (once out of business and now back again) that would show scales and chord patters with LED lights in the neck, and it would show them in different tunings. #I think now you can program it to show you that stuff in whatever #tunings you like. #Of course you still have to tune the guitar yerself...

Folks -will- find ways to use microprocessors in guitars (and other instruments... probably not mandolins, at least for quite a while...!! ), I'm sure. #For what sorts of functions I know not, but it's bound to be
... strange or fun, or... ah dunno... #

stv

[John Flynn]

Pianos:
-- 88 pitches
-- doubled strings for some, tripled for others
--equal temperament tuned either by hearing and counting beats or with a scope
--adjustments made for inharmonicity (stretched tuning)

Guitars:
--6 strings
--equal temperament easily accomplished by comparing open to fretted strings

Let's not compare apples and oranges.

OK, lets get more apples and apples. Hammered dulcimers today commonly have 32 different pitches, although they have been built historically with up to 100 pitches. Concert zithers can get quite complex also. Concert harps often have 46 stings with up to three pedal driven pitches each, for a possible 138. The tuning method on those is similar to the piano, in some cases, like the harp, even more complex. Yet most of the players of those instruments tune thier own. I am still interested in where exactly the threshold is where you feel an instrumentalist suddenly crosses over to becoming "lazy and incompetent" because they get help tuning thier instrument. I still think you have logically put piano players right in your cross-hairs.

[mandroid]

Hmmm, the image of a lap steel guitar that has all the sound functions of a table like pedal steel ,
but is way easier to haul around , popped into my mind.
BUT, the even tinier market segment for lap steels than mandolins , dobros, weisenborn , and such.

[Bob Sayers]

I received the advertisement for Gibson's robot guitar last month and was speculating with a friend whether it changed the pitch mechanically (a little motor in each peg housing relaxes the string tension) or electronically (string tension remains the same, but pitch changed digitally--if that's even possible). # I couldn't imagine building a little motor into each tuning peg, but apparently that's what they've done. #

Then it hit me: #Didn't Earl Scruggs figure out a simple and very economical way to do this some 50 years ago with his mechanical D-tuners!!! #They don't keep his banjo in perfect pitch like the Robot Guitar gizmo promises to do, but they offer a very satisfactory way to change tunings in a hurry. #In fact, I've heard that some acoustic guitar wizards have now tricked out their instruments with Scruggs/Keith pegs to drop into alternate tunings. #Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

Bob

[steve V. johnson]

Mandroid wrote, "Hmmm, the image of a lap steel guitar that has all the sound functions of a table like pedal steel ,
but is way easier to haul around , popped into my mind.
BUT, the even tinier market segment for lap steels than mandolins , dobros, weisenborn , and such."

Wow, that pedal steel idea is cool!

I think that once the microprocessor control is a couple of generations old it will be so cheap that adapting it to
other instruments will be easier and more common. It might even become a cottage industry, with some small-shop
folks offering to install the stuff...

I like thinking about these other uses for this technology. As for keeping my guitar in perfect tune... well, (I haven't read all the lit on this thing...) I'd have to be able to teach it what the few-cents compromises that I like in various tunings...

stv

[JimD]

Pianos:
-- 88 pitches
-- doubled strings for some, tripled for others
--equal temperament tuned either by hearing and counting beats or with a scope
--adjustments made for inharmonicity (stretched tuning)

Guitars:
--6 strings
--equal temperament easily accomplished by comparing open to fretted strings

Let's not compare apples and oranges.

OK, lets get more apples and apples. Hammered dulcimers today commonly have 32 different pitches, although they have been built historically with up to 100 pitches. Concert zithers can get quite complex also. Concert harps often have 46 stings with up to three pedal driven pitches each, for a possible 138. The tuning method on those is similar to the piano, in some cases, like the harp, even more complex. Yet most of the players of those instruments tune thier own. I am still interested in where exactly the threshold is where you feel an instrumentalist suddenly crosses over to becoming "lazy and incompetent" because they get help tuning thier instrument. I still think you have logically put piano players right in your cross-hairs.

Where to begin...

-- Concert Zithers -- 36-42 strings -- one string per pitch
-- Pedal harps -- tune the 46 strings and the pedals take care of the other 92 pitches

None of these instruments approach the complexity of piano tuning.

The stretch tuning that a piano requires is not an issue for these other instruments.

About piano tuning (from Grove's Dictionary of Music):

In judging intervals a tuner listens, consciously or subliminally, for beats among the overtones of the two notes involved. Hence differences in timbre crucially affect the procedure. It would be difficult to set precisely tempered intervals by a stopped-flute rank on the organ, for example, because its timbre is weak in the odd-numbered members of the harmonic overtone series. In piano timbre a mild degree of inharmonicity obliges the tuner to make all the octaves slightly larger than the theoretical norm of 1200 cents (which would be an octave with a frequency ratio of exactly 2:1). While the proper amount varies with the particular instrument, a general indication is given in Table 1 (based on suggestions made by the Tuners Supply Co. of Boston, Massachusetts). Some of the ‘stretch’ in the extreme bass and treble, however, is for the sake of a certain melodic bite gained by making the octaves larger than harmonic justness would dictate. In this respect different tuners and musicians have different tastes, but markedly stretched octaves are at best a mixed blessing in chamber music, where a more sober intonation will allow the non-keyboard instruments to blend more resonantly.

[John Flynn]

OK. So piano players get a pass. Everyone else who does not tune by ear is lazy or incompetent. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[jim simpson]

I spent so much time re-tuning my mandolin last night while jamming with friends that I wish I had a set of self tuning machines. I had just changed the strings the night before and didn't have a chance to play them in before our jam. I wonder if they continually moniter the string pitch to adjust while playing?

[JimD]

Johnny -- I'm not taking the bait. Been there...

[jaco]

I just played one of these today.(Gibson Les Paul) A friend bought one from Guitar Center before they sold out. I guess it's a limited run or something. You turn a tone control to the desired tuning (dropped D, Dadgad, and open G) and the tuners start turning until they reach the correct tuning. Seemed to be pretty accurate as far as intonation. I could see the utility for a pro who uses alternate tunings though most have multiple guitars set to different tunings. Not really my bag though. Probably just too old fashioned I guess.

[John Flynn]

Johnny -- I'm not taking the bait.

Too late. You did that a couple of posts back!

[jim_n_virginia]

I wonder if they continually moniter the string pitch to adjust while playing?

Supposedly whatever the dial is set for and with one strum it starts tuning inside. So I think it means that the guitar is constantly tuning itself keeping itself in tunes until you change the dial setting to another tuning and with the first strum it activates the tiny motors and it starts to change.

And I don't think using this kind of technology makes you any kind of a lazy musician any more than you would call a student or engineer lazy for using a calculator. Supposedly the technology just makes life efficient thats all.

Imagine tuning to open G on a mandolin with one turn of a dial to play "Get Up John" and when you are done dial back to standard tuning and with one strum you would be back where you started. I think that would be cool as heck to do.

And I don't think it will be long before they are copied by the Japanese and Chinese and this technology starts going into $300.00 models.

And I betcha that if the sales take off and it becomes popular it won't be long before they are on other instruments quickly.

Now where this technology is REALLY needed is a self tuning banjo! #

[JimD]

And I betcha that if the sales take off and it becomes popular it won't be long before they are on other instruments quickly.

Pardon me if I don't rejoice at the prospect of this scenario.

[jim_n_virginia]

Pardon me if I don't rejoice at the prospect of this scenario.

Jim I don't think handmade wooden instrument that you have to tune by hand will ever go outta style or stop being made by someone somewhere.

Whether we like it or not technology will always march forward, I think it cannot be stopped.

It just boggles my mind when I think about what we had in the 70's and what we have now just blows my mind. Now think about what we will have 30 years from now?

I can't wait until they makes stringed instruments that you insert a roll of mandolin or guitar string like a cartridge and with one push of a buttom a new section of string rolls into place, no fuss no muss, instant string change. LOL!

[JimD]

Pardon me if I don't rejoice at the prospect of this scenario.

Jim I don't think handmade wooden instrument that you have to tune by hand will ever go outta style or stop being made by someone somewhere.

Whether we like it or not technology will always march forward, I think it cannot be stopped.

It just boggles my mind when I think about what we had in the 70's and what we have now just blows my mind. Now think about what we will have 30 years from now?

I can't wait until they makes stringed instruments that you insert a roll of mandolin or guitar string like a cartridge and with one push of a buttom a new section of string rolls into place, no fuss no muss, instant string change. LOL!

But are we to simply accept that every technology change is good?

I can list quite a few that aren't -- I'm sure you could too.

I don't believe that more traditional instruments will go out of style. I am simply saying that I have already seen the effects of players who are too dependent upon electronic tuners -- having instruments that tune themselves will only exacerbate the problem.

Tuning is something that puts us in touch with the very essence of what music is. Why would we want to lose touch with that?

[mandroid]

I would just imagine the microprocessor and the player fighting each other
in the middle of a string bending SRV blues lick or a tasty vibrato.

TRON-esque battle scene , going toe to toe with the
L. Electrons

[John Flynn]

Tuning is something that puts us in touch with the very essence of what music is.

So when you perform, you entertain the audience with a lot of tuning, do you? I mean, every performer should want to put their audience in touch with their personal concept the very essence of music, right?

MHO is that technology itself is value neutral, neither good or bad. It's how people apply it that becomes good or bad. This tuner argument reminds me of the battles that went on in college math departments when multi-function calculators came into widespread use. The "Chicken Littles" warned that use of calculators would prevent students from learning higher math. That outcome just didn't happen. Then a few years later, as personal computers came to the fore, they warned that the sky was going to fall again, which again, it didn't.

[JEStanek]

Wasn't there a mandolin or guitar made in the 20's -30's that had button keys over the fingerboard to play chords instead of fretting the instrument with your fingers???

Progress moves on. I'm with Jonny, technology is neutral, what humans do with it can be good or bad.

Jamie

[JimD]

Tuning is something that puts us in touch with the very essence of what music is.

So when you perform, you entertain the audience with a lot of tuning, do you? I mean, every performer should want to put their audience in touch with their personal concept the very essence of music, right?

My apologies for posting something that you obviously don't understand but
thank you for the reductio ad absurdum -- nice touch.

[foldedpath]

I just played one of these today.(Gibson Les Paul) A friend bought one from Guitar Center before they sold out. I guess it's a limited run or something. You turn a tone control to the desired tuning (dropped D, Dadgad, and open G) and the tuners start turning until they reach the correct tuning. Seemed to be pretty accurate as far as intonation. I could see the utility for a pro who uses alternate tunings though most have multiple guitars set to different tunings. Not really my bag though. Probably just too old fashioned I guess.

I can see the utility for tuning, but I'm skeptical about alternate tunings. For one thing, Gibson dropped the ball by not including any real-time control over that, so no pedal steel effects like you'd have with a Telecaster B-bender. The ommission of Midi pedal control for something like that is odd. I guess they were trying to keep the costs down.

But you'd also have to use some compromise set of string gauges that could handle the extremes. The nice thing about using different guitars set to different tunings, is you can optimize the string gauges. And that affects intonation too... I always have to reset intonation on an adjustable bridge like a Tune-O-Matic when I move up or down in string gauge. This would have to be a compromise for intonation. If the goal is to avoid carrying multiple guitars, a better solution (IMO) is hex pickups and a Roland VG-99 to shift the pitches. That's what Joni Mitchell used to do. And you can use any guitar you want, with that setup. You're not locked into a specific Gibson model. A VG-99 will also do the live pedal steel shift thing, to any pitches you want, on any strings.

P.S. when I saw "robot mandolin" in the title, it reminded me of this -- the new Toyota violin robot. Still primitive, but watch your backs, fellow humans:

Toyota violin playing robot