Ditson "conquest" mandolin

**Dagwood** · Nov-28-2007, 11:09am

Hi all! Tho I have been a fan of the site for years, this is my first post. I have a friend who recently purchased a bowl back with a label inside from the Ditson Co., Boston, Phila, New York. The words "The Conquest Mandolin" also appear but no info such as date, patent, etc.. I currently have the mandolin at my house and will get some digi pics to post for you. In the meantime, I'll say that this instrument plays nicely and has a quiet, airy tone...nothing like my F5 for sure! It has a rather unique pickguard which appears to be tortoise with wood and pearl a/o abalone inlayed into it. Simple dot inlays on the fretboard. No inlay on the headstock. I believe the machines are original and the buttons may be ivory??? If they are plastic, there is absolutely NO SEAM to be seen to suggest molded plastic. There is also a rather clumsy, hinged tailpiece. At first, I thought "who would put such a clunker on such a small instrument?" until I picked it up to play it and discovered that the tailpiece doubles as a rather comfortable armrest! It (the tailpiece) appears to missing a latch device that would have prevented from opening accidently)...much like the latch button found on some purses. It is definitely NOT a delicate little clamshell like those found on similar instruments.

So-until I can get some pics posted, I am open to your speculation about how old this instrument may be. I am more familiar with the C.F.matin/Ditson partnership than other Ditson products (i.e. other instruments, sheet music, etc.).

Glad to be hooked up to the Cafe and looking forward to spending even more time here!

Thanks to everyone.

Dagwood

**Eric F.** · Nov-28-2007, 3:26pm

Dagwood, congrats on coming out of lurk mode. You might get more response to your query down in the classical section of the board. I couldn't even guess at the age of your mandolin, but there are plenty of people hanging around here with more knowledge.

**Eugene** · Nov-28-2007, 9:55pm

Keen to see pictures. The tuner buttons are almost certainly a grained celluloid that was referred to as "ivoroid." The tailpiece you describe is often referred to as "kidney" and was a staple on Lyon & Healy's American Conservatory brand. In fact, from your description, it almost certainly is not by Martin (if the tailpiece is original) but might be by another company with ties to Ditson, Lyon & Healy. Pictures might be revealing...but might not.

**brunello97** · Nov-28-2007, 10:22pm

Dagwood,

Ditson had a whole range of instruments named in light of a previous hegemonistic trend in US foreign policy: Empire, Victory, and Conquest. Maybe others.....I'm with Eugene on the L+H link viz the standard bowls. (Though I've often wondered about some Ditsons and Martin, due to the scrolls + hole in the headstock-though that is not unique to these.) My understanding is that Martin may have marked their contract work in some fashion. Eugene, what are your thoughts about this?

Here is a Conquest Label I have in my files.

Does this resemble yours?

Mick

**Dagwood** · Nov-29-2007, 8:59am

I've gotten a start on the pics but will post when I have a full set. Mick, that label is the one (or darned close). I'll see if I can snake an inspection light inside and get a pic of that while I'm at it. As to the headstock...it is a simple paddle without ornament. I was playing a bit of ragtime on it last night and I decided to call my friend to tell him that he may not get this mandolin back. it just has the sweetest, little sound to it!

I'll jump over to the classical section, too. Thanks for the suggestion.

more soon...

Bill

**Lane Pryce** · Nov-29-2007, 11:40am

Is this the Oliver Ditson Company that imported instruments around the turn of the century? I have had several fine violins that were imported by Oliver Ditson. My understanding of the Oliver Ditson Co. is they evolved into what is now the Martin Guitar Co. Correct me if I'm wrong ------ Lp

**Dagwood** · Nov-29-2007, 12:00pm

C.F.Martin built the earliest dreadnought (named for the biggest, baddest British Battleships of the day) guitars for Ditson and put a label inside that reflected the "especially for..." nature of the instruments. This would have been around 1915-1916.

It is also my understanding that Ditson sold everything from Steinway pianos to sheet music. Other instrument makers who did work for Ditson included York and Conn (brass instruments). That's about all I know of the Ditson Co..

Bill

**Bill Snyder** · Nov-29-2007, 11:30pm

Originally Posted by (JLP @ Nov. 29 2007, 11:40)

... My understanding of the Oliver Ditson Co. is they evolved into what is now the Martin Guitar Co. Correct me if I'm wrong ------ Lp

CF Martin as a guitar builder dates back to the early 1800's in Germany and in the USA from 1833.

**Jim Garber** · Nov-30-2007, 7:03am

Originally Posted by (JLP @ Nov. 29 2007, 12:40)

My understanding of the Oliver Ditson Co. is they evolved into what is now the Martin Guitar Co. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lyon & Healy was a spinoff of the Ditson Company, set up originally to be the Chicago distributor for Ditson products mostly sheet music. Ditson was primarily a music publishing house and had three stores under their own name: Oliver Ditson in Boston, Charles H. Ditson in New York and J. E. Ditson in Philadelphia. Martin merely contracted to make guitars, ukuleles and mandolins for them.

**Bob DeVellis** · Nov-30-2007, 8:33am

Although Oliver Ditson didn't evolve into Martin, Ditson goes pretty far back. Oliver's first music-related job was in the shop of Samuel H. Parker, who sold sheet music. That began in 1823, a decade before Martin opened its doors. Ditson began publishing on his own in 1835. He got into the instrument business through his association with John C Haynes, first in a partnership that combined the resources of Ditson's publishing house and Haynes's instrument shop, and later, when Haynes joined the firm and eventually became its president.

They primarily jobbed or imported the instruments that carried their name, using a variety of sources.

Ditson was really a music powerhouse in his day, sort of the Rupert Murdoch of the 19th century. He founded and sat on the boards of banks, absorbed smaller companies left and right, and amassed a fortune. Lyon & Healy was founded when he sent a couple of his proteges (George Washburn Lyon and Patrick Healy) to Chicago to set up shop distributing his merchandise. The two companies maintained a strong affiliation even after L&H became independent. THe volume of sheet music that Ditson published was enormous and varied across a wide spectrum of musical genres. His business occupied several Boston locations, the last being an impressive structure across from the Boston Commons roughly where the Four Seasons Hotel is now located.

Despite his considerable success, you don't find much criticism of Ditson or his business practices. I'm not sure whether that's because business was a gentler enterprise then (which the facts certainly don't support), because Ditson was a powerful but fair man, or because he was able to suppress anything critical from being published. He did have his own company historian, William Arms Fisher, who certainly sanitized the record. For example, the official history of the Ditson Co. makes no mention of Ditson's buying out Elias Howe's musical collection on the condition that Howe desist from competing in the publishing business for 10 years. Howe, of course, got back in the game after the time was up and was himself a hugely successful music publisher, although never as big as Ditson.

Sorry for the ramble. Got carried away.

**brunello97** · Nov-30-2007, 9:31am

Thank, Bob, for the ramble. That's the kind of stuff I come here for. So much of this information is available only in dribble and drabs and these type of threads seem like a good place to collect them and sort through them.

I've had a long interest in the Ditson jobbed mandolins but remain unclear about many of the actual sources. We've talked at length about models produced by L+H for them (the Leland-ish line in particular.) I've seen some float by that I was guessing (hoping) might be Martins or Vegas, but that only based on certain characteristics (bowl profile, bridge placement, etc.) and not on anything that I have the experience to be certain about.

This would be a nice thread to continue and maintain as a 'Ditson' centered information resource.

Mick

**Bruce Clausen** · Dec-01-2007, 3:36pm

Would the name be in celebration of the U.S. conquest of the Philippines, Puerto Rico, etc. in 1898?

BC

**MikeEdgerton** · Dec-01-2007, 4:08pm

Take a look at this list of makers and brand names on the Mugwumps website. You'd be hard pressed to put all those Lyon & Healy model names in line with political and world events but I guess you could.

**brunello97** · Dec-01-2007, 7:21pm

Bruce,

My hunch is that you are right. I'm no historian but the US was late to the Maastricht treaty party and sought to play some McKinley-esque catch up. (The Lincoln hang-over was over.) How else could one describe the debacle of US 'colonizing' the Philippines? What did we have on our minds?

I guess the same question might be asked now. Maybe a "Shock and Awe" bowlback? An intro model, for sure. Or a "Mission Accomplished"-slightly higher grade model? And finally the "Stay the Course"--the most expensive model, for sure. (A lot of bling, not much tone.)

How much do we miss Lloyd Loar? Innovation, high quality materials, high level of craft. Appealing to the better angels of our nature.

Mick