Session back-up mando

[harwilli55]

I have recently begun attending and playing in a couple of sessions here in central Va. The sessions tend to be small, but the musicians are first rate.

It has been overwhelming jumping in as sessioneers pump out tunes like a burp gun stuck on high velocity discharge. They may call the first tune's name, then follow that one with 3-5 other tunes without a pause. I am finding that attending regularly, I am beginning to know the name of some of the tunes and the key. I know as time goes on and my ear develops, that I will become more adept at that part.

The first couple of times that I experienced this, I was lucky there happened to be a guitar player, so I could follow somewhat, after I learned DADGAD chord shapes. However, increasingly, there has been no guitar player, so I have been teaching my self to use DADGAD on guitar.

Now, given that I have a cheapie mando with a rather tinny sound, I still would like to work on backing up using the mando. I know that the guitar fills the void in the lower registers which can really sound good(especially when I have listened to experienced back-up rythmnists(not including myself there yet)).

So, my question is : Given that the mando plays in the same high register as many of the typical session instruments(Flute, Penny Whistle, Fiddle, Uilleann Pipes), what techinques would you use to back the session?(typically, between 6-7 players inclusive) What would you be thinking of doing to provide color, lift, and/or rythmn?

Harlan

[woodwizard]

Kind of depends on what kind of music your playing. Slow-fast-bluegrass-celtic etc.
On Bluegrass a good backbeat chop works and when slower sometimes a tremelo works good for feelins. Also maybe some crosspicking.

[jmcgann]

what techniques would you use to back the session?(typically, between 6-7 players inclusive) What would you be thinking of doing to provide color, lift, and/or rhythm?

Most Irish tunes are in mando friendly keys that allow for open strings. I tend to put little counterlines underneath on the bottom two strings and let the top two drone as open strings (yes, even in the key of D I will let the high E string ring.)

I detail the technique in my Rhythm Mandolin DVD,once you get the hang of it, it's easy and quite effective. Combined with alternate picking and crosspicking, you can create some great textures that are NOT bluegrass.I think it's good to understand that Bluegrass and Irish are each very different, with lots of sub-genres of their own. Coming in and chopping is generally not much appreciated.

Also, listen to Dervish, Andy Irvine, Alec Finn, Dan Beinborm, Roger Landes etc. as most of what works on low mandos/bouzoukis will work on mando- as long as you keep the "action" mostly on the lower strings, so as not to compete with the melodies (ever notice that many Irish fiddle tune melodies are mostly on the top two strings?)

[harwilli55]

John,

Not interested in bluegrass as a player. What you described sounds way cool. I had not thought of using the lower two strings as the melodic support and droning the top string/s. That gives me a direction to play around with. I recorded the sessions so I have tunes and tempo to mess around with.

Thanks !!!

Harlan

[TimPiazza]

Harlan, you're lucky to be in a small session--it becomes impossible to hear a mandolin in a large session because of the shared sonic space. Something you might consider is looking for a relatively inexpensive bouzouki or octave mandolin (like a Morgan Monroe or Trinity College). These will let you play with mandolin chords while filling in the lower register of a guitar.

For a good sense of what you want to do rhythmically, listen to the bodhran player, try to keep the same energy, and play off of their rhythm.

Tim

[harwilli55]

Aye Tim,
I know I am totally lucky to be in such a small setting. One of the regulars does play a Trinity Octave. He let me give it a try last session. I love the sound of an octave and eventually will own one. However, my chops will be earned with what I have at the moment, so that will be mando and guitar. And I do sit beside the bodhran player. When we find a groove and that tight synchronized feel happens...we both glance in each others direction with a smile/grin totally immersed playing off each other. Fun !!!



Harlan

[allenhopkins]

[1] In most Irish seisuns, the music is basically all the melody instruments playing the melody, and the rhythm instruments playing chords. Once you learn the melodies of the tunes, you can just play them, and you'll be doing what the fiddlers/whistlers/accordionists/pipers are doing.
[2] Doing something a little different is fun, though. If you can improvise harmonies and counter-melodies, usually below the melody line, it will really enrich the sound. Playing the melody, or parts of it, in a different octave can work, though that's a lot easier if you have a bouzouki or octave mandolin.
[3] If you can figure out the chords, you can combine playing chord rhythm with adding runs and transitions between the chords. Sort of the equivalent of the "bass runs" that guitarists play (though often don't in Celtic seisuns), but of course not in the bass register.
[4] Since what you're saying is that your current role is basically rhythm/chords, think about adding little rhythmic flourishes, especially on fast tunes; fast up-and-down strumming, triplets where they fit, emphasizing off-beats (though not "chopping" -- this isn't bluegrass, where the mandolin basically acts like a snare drum when it's not soloing).
[5] On waltzes and slow airs, a good tremelo mandolin line, whether melody or harmony, usually adds a nice texture to the tunes.

Mandolin family instruments are pretty special in Celtic seisuns, since they can play both melody and rhythm. Use this versatility to your advantage, alternating your roles, and you'll add a nice spice to the mix.

[Bertram Henze]

Getting the hang of it is essential, since Irish tunes often avoid simple chord cadences. If I can't play the melody, I mostly do double stops (5ths and 6ths) on my OM which should work for mandolin as well.
With a tune in D, for instance, GDAE Tabs would go like this x-0-0-x, 4-4-x-x, 2-2-x-x, x-0-0-x, x-2-2-x, x-4-5-x, x-6-8-x to be applied ad lib, but leaning on to melody lines whenever possible. For tunes in G or A, the same double stops are just shifted one course down or up (thanks to consequent tuning in 5ths).

Bertram

[otterly2k]

Harlan - In addition to all the great advice above, you might also consider experimenting with alternate tunings. I use ADAE mostly (on both OM and mando), and LOTS of seisiun players use GDAD on zouks or OM's. This gives you lots of great open/droning options.

I play OM most of the time in my small group, and hold the mid-range/lower register. I'd call what I play rhythm sometimes, but it is rarely just strumming chords... I do a lot of moving lines, snippets of harmonies against drones, played rhythmically to accentuate what's going on makes it rhythm... not just the block-o-sound full chords. Sometimes crosspicking. etc. And sometimes when I feel like playing mando instead of OM, I do the same on mando.

[Avi Ziv]

Harlan - I know this doesn't answer your question directly but I would strongly recommend that you don't "give up" on playing the tunes just because you don't know them yet. I say this for several reasons, in no particular order

1. Backing without knowing the tune is very difficult and dangerous, especially for someone who is new to Irish sessions. The tunes can take little twists and turns which can clash with "standard" backing approaches. Also - there are no "correct" chords in Irish music. Multiple backing instruments can clash easily. Knowing the tunes really well, will give you an insight
2. Backing is a great function at a session but knowing the tunes will get you accepted in some sessions better than "just" backing
3. If you know the tunes, you can start sets and play things that you like. You can introduce new tunes to the group and make a nice contribution. Bringing new tunes to a session is much appreciated by the many long-timers.
4. If you learn the tunes, you can (at some point) start doubling on other instruments like tenor banjo.

In the early stages of learning the music from the "inside", I think you want to do as much listening as possible. It's hard to listen closely to what other are playing if you are trying to get backing skills going. There is nothing wrong with sitting in a session and just listening. I know a woman who had her fiddle on her lap for a whole year. Ok - not every one (even me) wants to do that - but the point is that it's accepted and even respected by other session members.

Some people look down at backers in Irish session. I think it's an increadible art and wide open for creativity. Still - I vote for spending a year or two learning tunes.

I know this doesn't work for everyone. It's just my experience

Welcome to "The Music"

Avi

[danb]

I like to "fake it" on the bouzouki to pick up the changes and play something more like an Alec Finn backing line (often as complex if not more complex than the melody) until I have it, then merge between the two. I have a somewhat sloppy ear that processes "Similar" things well, so I use that as an input when I'm backing

[MikeB]

Dan, I'm a great admirer of almost everything you do with music. Could you elaborate just a bit how "an Alec Finn backing line" works? (In the meantime, I'll go listen to some!)

[mandocrucian]

If you are interested in ways to back up a tune, you may be interested in the following instructional stuff. (Note these items are not stocked by Elderly, but are available direct.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Mandocrucian's Digest #24 - Backing Up A Fiddle Or Other High Register Instrument In A Duo Setting* ("Garry Owen", "Swinging On A Gate"), Solo Mandolin w/Zenkl ("Greensleeves", "The Last Supper"), Cajun Mandolin w/Comeaux ("Les Filles a Nonc Helaire"), mando pickups and brackets, Jamming Player's Repertoire Appendix (Cajun, klezmer, Cape Breton, Texas-fiddle, Chicago & Piedmont blues), technical exercises - keeping your (left) fingers down, record and book reviews. [* Instuctional CD of this article available]

Mandocrucian's Digest #25 - Introduction To Playing With Pick & Fingers, Additional thoughts on Mando Backup ("Swinging On A Gate"), Mandos From Finland w/Arto Jarvela ("Seijarin Polska", scored for 2 mandolins and octave mandolin), The Jamming Player's Repertoire Appendix Part 2 (English Country Dance, Czech, Irish, Scottish, Finnish, New England contra-dance, Old-Time, Dixieland, Swing/jazz), Solo Mandolin w/Zenkl (single line melody solo - "Happygrass"), A Look at Playing Greek Music, "George IV" strathspey, 1993 Listening Survey, record reviews.

CD: THE ART OF BACKUP: BACKING A FIDDLE OR OTHER HIGH REGISTER INSTRUMENT IN A DUO SETTING
75-minute CD demonstrating the material in the MD #24-25 articles and expanding upon them. Complete stereo separation between the mandolin backup parts and the lead instruments (fiddle, accordion, flute, whistle, concertina), using the tunes "Garry Owen" and "Swinging On A Gate" as demonstration vehicles. Also includes long "play-along" tracks at manageable tempos so you can actually practice backing another instruments. Backup can be so much more than just the "chop"! You won't find this type of instruction anywhere else!</span>

Niles Hokkanen

[Perry]

Besides the products mentioned I've found Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-Up For All Instrumentalists" to be very good

His 15 point plan
is great. The link above shows one of fifteen different back-up ideas.

[Avi Ziv]

I agree, Perry. This is an excellent book
Avi

[harwilli55]

QUOTE-Allen sez:
[1] In most Irish seisuns, the music is basically all the melody instruments playing the melody, and the rhythm instruments playing chords. Once you learn the melodies of the tunes, you can just play them, and you'll be doing what the fiddlers/whistlers/accordionists/pipers are doing.

Harlan replies Allen, I am learning the tunes as fast as my old memory, slow fingers, and faulty technique will allow. When a tune comes around that I have learned, I jump in !!! However, being the neophyte, my repertoire is vastly tiny compared to the session players. I realize that only time, experience, and patience will fill that well. As for the rythmn, I am finding it totally fun when I can find the groove.

QUOTE-Allen sez [2] Doing something a little different is fun, though. If you can improvise harmonies and counter-melodies, usually below the melody line, it will really enrich the sound. Playing the melody, or parts of it, in a different octave can work, though that's a lot easier if you have a bouzouki or octave mandolin.

Harlan replies I do that more at home when playing along with recordings I make of the sessions I attend. Not brave nor knowledgeble enough to replicate that in the live setting yet.However, when I am playing with the recording, every now and then, I will find that little counter-melody that just pushes the melody out front and complements it. But as soon as I realize that is happening, I LOSE IT ....lol...but the good thing is that knowing I can find it once....means that I will find it again.

Allen sez [3] If you can figure out the chords, you can combine playing chord rhythm with adding runs and transitions between the chords. Sort of the equivalent of the "bass runs" that guitarists play (though often don't in Celtic seisuns), but of course not in the bass register.

Harlan replies: There are some tunes, that I can find those runs. I find it harder to find it when the tunes are minor ( i.e. Morrisons, Swallowtail, Trip to Sligo, etc)

Allen sez[4] Since what you're saying is that your current role is basically rhythm/chords, think about adding little rhythmic flourishes, especially on fast tunes; fast up-and-down strumming, triplets where they fit, emphasizing off-beats (though not "chopping" -- this isn't bluegrass, where the mandolin basically acts like a snare drum when it's not soloing).

Harlan replies: Believe me when I say....there is no choppin in these here chops. While I grew up listening to and loving bluegrass, my playing perferences have never included bluegrass. So I have never practiced chopping, even though I like it's effect in bluegrass settings. That said, I am working to get smooth even triplets, which means loosening my wrist which resembles and iron bar running from the forge(lol...ungainly would be appropo). I do love finding the off-beats with the bodhran player and building that between us.

Allen sez:[5] On waltzes and slow airs, a good tremelo mandolin line, whether melody or harmony, usually adds a nice texture to the tunes.

Harlan replies When I do use tremolo, which is very rarely(unless I know the tune from memory), I do get compliments from the other players. Though I am still trying to feel my way where tremolo fits best and where it inhibits and becomes overused.

Allen, thank you for your very thoughtful, well presented suggestions. It is so helpful to see in writing what can work and what to work on.

Bertram sez : I mostly do double stops (5ths and 6ths) on my OM which should work for mandolin as well.

Harlan replies : [i] That is a great idea Bertram and I certainly need to include doublestop studies in my practice time. I have known that for a while, but have been so concentrated learning the overwhelming number of tunes I have collected from recording the sessions, that I often forget technique.[i/]

Otterly sez : In addition to all the great advice above, you might also consider experimenting with alternate tunings. I use ADAE mostly (on both OM and mando), and LOTS of seisiun players use GDAD on zouks or OM's. This gives you lots of great open/droning options.

Harlan replies: Otterly, I have been recently experimenting with alternate tuning on the guitar(DADGAD and Drop D) but had never really thought about transferring that to mando...sounds cool.....thanks.....another new door through which to explore.

Improviz sez : I know this doesn't answer your question directly but I would strongly recommend that you don't "give up" on playing the tunes just because you don't know them yet. I say this for several reasons, in no particular order

Harlan replies : Believe me when I say, I am spending the majority of my practice time learning tunes. One of the great things I have found from attending sessions, is that whole new vista's of music are opened to me. Every time I hear a new tune....I wanna own it .....NOW.... My repertoire is expanding daily, although, playing that expanding list up to speed, especially session speed will take time.

Improviz sez : 1. Backing without knowing the tune is very difficult and dangerous, especially for someone who is new to Irish sessions. The tunes can take little twists and turns which can clash with "standard" backing approaches. Also - there are no "correct" chords in Irish music. Multiple backing instruments can clash easily. Known the tunes really well, will give you an insight

Harlan replies : [i] I clash therefore I am. Yes, that is one of the more difficult things I am learning, is that Irish music is often modal and that chordal structures as I know them may not and often do not fit. So I flail looking/searching for a chord that will fit. Sometimes successfully, mostly not. If I am lucky, there will be another string player at the session who will yell that chord to me, and that helps. I am working to broaden my ear and my chord knowledge also[i]

Improviz sez 2. Backing is a great function at a session but knowing the tunes will get you accepted in some sessions better than "just" backing

Harlan replies : [i] I am very lucky to have a small session with very patient and tolerant sessioneers. I am working hard to gain a repertoire that allows me to play the melody lines along with the the rest of the upper register instruments, but that will take time...time...time. I will say that I do have more tunes I can play melody with now than when I went to my first session....so my list is growing....albeit slowly.[i]

Improviz sez : 3. If you know the tunes, you can start sets and play things that you like. You can introduce new tunes to the group and make a nice contribution. Bringing new tunes to a session is much appreciated by the many long-timers.

Harlan replies : [i] Improviz, you hit my golden nail on the head. I know that when I have enough tunes under my fingers at speed and can introduce a set, that I will be participating in session the way I visulalize. That is my goal....getting there one tune at a time.[i]

Improviz sez : 4. If you learn the tunes, you can (at some point) start doubling on other instruments like tenor banjo.

Harlan replies : [i] Are you an IAS Enabler ? Have you been attending my sessions and see the desire in my eyes for Octaves and Tenors ? How have you figured that out ?
You betcha Improviz....I have my eye on in the future...having more than just the mando sound to take to sessions.....

Thanks so much for taking the time to write and think about my questions, Avi.[i]

Niles sez If you are interested in ways to back up a tune, you may be interested in the following instructional stuff. (Note these items are not stocked by Elderly, but are available direct.

Harlan replies [i] Thanks Niles....I have your "Bluegrass up the Neck" and "Pentatonic Mandolin" books. They have been very helpful and am still using them. You are always a resource[i]

DanB sez : I like to "fake it" on the bouzouki to pick up the changes and play something more like an Alec Finn backing line (often as complex if not more complex than the melody) until I have it, then merge between the two. I have a somewhat sloppy ear that processes "Similar" things well, so I use that as an input when I'm backing

Harlan replies [i] Uh...Dan....what you said sounds good....I think...however....Man that is way above my head....I can only hope to reach a level someday where I understand that without needing explanations. Time to google and learn about Alec Finn, so thanks for pointing in a direction.[i]

Perry sez : Besides the products mentioned I've found Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-Up For All Instrumentalists" to be very good

Harlan replies Thanks for the link Perry, I shall be checking that out for future purchase.

Thanks for all the incredibly knowledgeable replies. I will be making a list to incorporate into my practices that will be sure to include much of what has been suggested here. It is a pleasure to have access to such a community.

Harlan

[yoods]

Hi Harlan,
I sent you a question via private message about the sesson.

[withak]

[2] Doing something a little different is fun, though. If you can improvise harmonies and counter-melodies, usually below the melody line, it will really enrich the sound. Playing the melody, or parts of it, in a different octave can work, though that's a lot easier if you have a bouzouki or octave mandolin.

Mandolin family instruments are pretty special in Celtic seisuns, since they can play both melody and rhythm. Use this versatility to your advantage, alternating your roles, and you'll add a nice spice to the mix.

The problem is that what a mandolin player might consider "fun" and "spice" aren't necessarily what everyone else might consider good things at a session, especially a small session. The important thing is to keep an eye on other people's reactions and play accordingly (this is not a mando-specific strategy either).

You could also ask the other musicians what they think of your accompaniment. If the responses are ambivalent then you should probably tone it down a bunch.

[allenhopkins]

The problem is that what a mandolin player might consider "fun" and "spice" aren't necessarily what everyone else might consider good things at a session, especially a small session. #The important thing is to keep an eye on other people's reactions and play accordingly (this is not a mando-specific strategy either). #You could also ask the other musicians what they think of your accompaniment. #If the responses are ambivalent then you should probably tone it down a bunch.

One should always play with taste -- goes without saying. #And one should also be aware of the reactions of other musicians to what they're playing.

However, I tend to gravitate to sessions/jams/sing-arounds where musicians are open and welcoming, and avoid ones where people give the "fish-eye" to less experienced participants, or those who may try different (though tasteful) styles and approaches to the music.

Therefore, I slightly disagree that keeping an eye on how the other session players react to one's playing is "the important thing." #It's a factor, but only one factor, IMHO.