Policy

[Dan Voight]

I'd like a few experienced builder's opionions on my current situation:

Someone contacted me about building a F4 mandolin. Sweet. Everything sounded fine about his requests for wood, binding, etc. besides one thing, he didn't want my logo on the peghead. He said none of his instruments have a logo yada yada yada... we went back and forth for a while. He seemed bent on it so I gave in and said, "ok, no logo". It was a tough decision because this will only be my sencond order. Another thing that he wanted was a garentee that he would recieve a 100% refund if he wasn't satisfied with the instrument. This I don't agree on. Could some of you experienced builders give me an idea of your policies and specifics to help me develop my own? Thanks guys and gals.

[fatt-dad]

I'm not an experienced builder, but for what it's worth, I'd give him the refund, less the cost to add your inlay. Likely a $200.00 item.

I had ordered a mandolin and the builder did exactly what I told him to do. Fact was I didn't use good judgement on the peghead and instructed him to redo the inlay. He did for the extra effort it took him (it was $200.00) When I had to cancel my order (I had already given him a deposit), he gave me the full refund, minus the extra effort to re-do the peghead inlay to a more conventional style.

I'd say go ahead and give the customer what they want, but if it's returned hold back funds needed to make it sellable in your market.

Like I say, I'm just providing advice from my limited experience.

f-d

[mrmando]

Caveats about a refund:

1) You mutually establish a reasonable approval period. Often it's 48 or 72 hours. Could be as much as a week if you're feeling generous. No calling you two months later and asking for a refund.
2) If he sends it back, he pays for shipping & insurance -- the same shipping method & same amount of insurance you used to send it to him. And he doesn't get his $ back until you are satisfied that it is in the same condition in which you sent it. You could specify a "damage deposit" amount to be held by you if it is damaged or worn.

I guess you should ask yourself whether this order is so heavily customized that no one else will want this particular mandolin should this guy change his mind. As long as you think there's a reasonable market for it, I should think it safe to offer the refund.

As for the no-logo thing, I guess that's a matter of preference; I assume your logo is nice & prominent on the instrument's label. For grins, you could also stamp your logo on the back of the truss rod cover (so he won't see it unless he takes the cover off).

[sunburst]

I've made several instruments with no peghead logo, and even more with someone else's peghead logo. I don't have a problem with it at all, especially when the label inside has the builder's name on it.

As for a refund if the customer is not satisfied, many builders have a policy that is similar to this:

A non-refundable deposit starts the building process. That way we know the customer is serious, and when the mandolin is done, hopefully won't say something like "Oh, I can't afford that now, I can't buy it."
So anyway, the deposit is non-refundable, the mandolin is done, and the customer says: "This isn't what I want, I'm not paying for this POS", or something like that, then the builder is stuck trying to sell a custom instrument to the "general public", none of whom ordered the custom instrument.
A common policy is for the builder to sell the instrument, and only then pay the original orderer the sale price, and keep the deposit for his/her trouble.

[Chris Biorkman]

I wouldn't do it if I were you. You shouldn't compromise your design aesthetic for anyone (a headstock inlay of a monkey smoking a cigarette comes to mind). If you have a problem with not putting your name on the headstock, then turn down the order. You are pretty young and based on the pics that I have seen, I'm pretty sure you will have many more orders in the future.

Personally, I really like the script you use on your inlay. It looks very classy and I think it is one of the nicest that I have seen (along with Gilchrist, Duff, and Poe).

As for the money back guarantee, most builders offer them. However, I think you should have a non-refundable deposit.

[MikeEdgerton]

The seller should make the terms and the buyer should be willing to accept them or go elsewhere. Sometimes it's better to walk away from a piece of business that seems too restrictive or one-sided.

[Will Kimble]

Sounds like you already agreed to do the peghead his way. #Maybe next time you won't... #Will be OK either way, you will know what to do when the time comes.

A couple things you can do if a customer is unhappy - you can refund the money, or you can build another mandolin if you think that will solve the problem. #As far as I am concerned, a new mandolin is subject to the standard 48-72 hour approval period. #

However, it may be necessary for the customer to wait until I am able to sell their mandolin to another party before I am able to refund the money. #And as noted earlier, it may be necessary to advise the client at some point that if they want you to do X, Y & Z, then they need to understand that this instrument is unusual enough that they will NOT be able to return it. #Keep this in mind while negotiating these points with a customer - if they ask you to build something you can't sell, then you need to protect yourself.

Deposits are another interesting point, as far as I am concerned they are non-refundable... #BUT, I have always refunded them when necessary and will continue to do so as long as I am able. #

A good question, and the type of problem that builders deal with at every level. #Comes much easier with experience. #

Good luck,
Will Kimble

[billhay4]

I would go with a non-refundable deposit and a peghead logo. Could this guy be buying your stuff, putting another logo and label on it and re-selling it? Been known to happen.
Bill

[Dan Voight]

I would go with a non-refundable deposit and a peghead logo. Could this guy be buying your stuff, putting another logo and label on it and re-selling it? Been known to happen.
Bill

Interesting someone would do such a thing. He seems lagitimate. I just don't want to discourage my second mandolin order, you know? What do you think a good deposit price would be if he were paying around $2,800 total for the instrument?

[bradeinhorn]

I would go with a non-refundable deposit and a peghead logo. Could this guy be buying your stuff, putting another logo and label on it and re-selling it? Been known to happen.
Bill

this is certainly not the case. it is just a preference of the buyer. an interior label would of course be present.

I've looked into this issue with various other dealers who represent builders and the general consensus seems to be non-refundable deposit of some sort. 25% seems to be the standard , but some go as high as 50% depending on some of the above items discussed, like seller's/maker's ability to resell. One dealer actually will not refund at all unless the design specs are not met or if there is apparent design defect.

additionally, in the case of stores representing builders, there is no recourse to the maker.

thanks for everyone's advice, especially all the great luthiers who chimed in.

Brad

[bradeinhorn]

hey dan

[allenhopkins]

Put the logo on the peghead, and include a piece of black electrical tape. Tell the buyer that if it's good enough for Grisman...

[otterly2k]

Up to you re: the peghead logo... it doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me as long as your label is inside, etc. But a non-refundable deposit of some amount seems appropriate.

[Brady Smith]

Non-refundable deposit and if the guys buying...build him anything he wants.

[David Newton]

At this stage in your career you shouldn't be too concerned about a commission, you can build what you like and probably sell it right away. If you've already agreed to your customer's request, go ahead with it, and with a no-refund deposit. Make sure you get all the money before it is delivered, that is customary.
Is your customer still making choices and changes? At some point you should be saying "enough" and let him go away.
Sometimes it's better to get the customer out of the loop.<g> There is a fine line between a discrimating mandolin buyer and a pain in the A.

[Michael Lewis]

As a maker it is difficult to pass up an order, as it appears as money in the bank sometime in the future. Since that is mainly why we are in this business our natural "logic" tells us to take the job and do it well. This is great if all goes well but once in a while there is the customer with unreasonable expectations or worse, and at that time you will wish you had not taken the job.

There is a certain pleasure in taking on a complex and difficult job and exceeding the customer's expectations, but you just never know how the customer will react to the new instrument. You can get a customer that doesn't like it for some reason or other even if the instrument is ourstanding. This is not fair to the maker, but then the customer is taking a chance by ordering something he has never played. For this reason, and for more peace of mind, I recommend just making the instruments for the market as you see fit and not taking any custom orders. There are some well known makers that no longer take custom orders, but continue to make high end instruments and sell them well. It all depends on where your head is and how you want to live your life.

One aspect to taking sizable deposits, several guitar makers I know have gotten into a bit of a pickle because they took lots of deposits and spent the money, then later they have to make the guitars and deliver them for seemingly little money. It doesn't make sense to me to think that way but they are up against the wall trying to make a living, having already spent much of what they will earn when they deliver the instrument. I take a modest deposit, more if it is very personalized. Making "spec" instruents for the market is much more to my liking since I can use my own judgment and make them to my preferences or what I think is desired .

[Gavin Baird]

Michael,
I totally agree with your presentation...Gavin

[sunburst]

While Michael and Gavin make a good point, and I agree that simply building them and then selling them can be a good way to run a lutherie business, I can say that almost everything I've built for the last couple of years has been custom ordered and I haven't run into any serious problems with any customers. Custom orders, and customers, are not always problematic. It's one of the reasons players come to "little guys" like me for their instruments.

[Tom C]

*Usually* a deposit is put down when ordering. Then balance when complete. If the mando is delievered and the buyer is unhappy, the builder will refund 100% when the instrument is sold to somebody else for that same price. When would deposit not be refundable? Death? If instrument was sold at price minus initial deposit.(Luthier still makes the same) How about If the order was cancelled before building started? If builder started the mando? -I would say it's up to the builder. I do not think any luthier wants an unhappy customer. Even customs, if not over the top, are easily sold.

[PaulD]

As Michael said... beware of the customer who wants to micro manage the build process. He probably can't pay you enough to make it worthwhile. When I was doing custom woodworking I at least got a deposit to cover the material, and it's not unreasonable to make that non-refundable. Don't do as my ex-wife used to do as a professional artist: take much or all of the money up front and then run out of $$$ to finish the projects. She's a great artist but a lousy business person.

I'm not building instruments so (as always) take my banter with a large grain of salt or a shot of good whiskey. As I read this thread last night I was thinking to keep in mind this is your second instrument for sale. If the customer's not a PITA I think you should work with him/her and deliver the best instrument you're capable of building. At this stage you can't afford to put a dog out there (not to be confused with The Dawg ). Even if you don't make great money on this instrument you'll be on your way to building a reputation if he'll get it out where folks can hear it. Building to order will also be a good experience and will help you fine tune your processes so that future orders will go more smoothly.

I hope it works out well for you.

pd

[billhay4]

I presently have in my possession an instrument with a well known disreputable builder's name on it that a friend gave me to "fix", meaning play around with to see if I could make it at least presentable.
Consensus is it is a kit or cheaper instrument that he did a bit of cosmetics on, put his logo on, and passed off as his own work. Maybe so, maybe not. My friend bought it as a custom build and never has played it professionally.
I am not saying this is happening here at all, but a request for no logo strikes me as odd. Maybe it's a personal preference, maybe not. My guess is that it's an innocent request. Does he want anything else on the headstock? Is the place where a logo would go being left blank?
In the final analysis, build what you want. But if you want to build YOUR instruments for sale, I'd do what others have suggested -- build what you want to build and put them out there for sale with your name on them. If they're well made and reasonably priced, they'll sell.
Custom orders mean you have a different boss on each job. For guys like sunburst who have established a reputation for excellence, maybe this is a good way to go, but for a new builder, it will eventually lead to heartache.
IMHO,
Bill

[sunburst]

Just as examples, here are some reasons to choose no peghead logo;

-Customer wants a custom peghead inlay in place of a logo
-I'm building a guitar with the Martin torch inlay in the slotted peghead per the customer's request. It wouldn't look right with a logo too.
-Some people just don't want flashy pearl on the instrument, and/or script or other logo interfering with a clean design.
-Simply to save money

I don't think it would be imposing to ask the customer why he/she doesn't want the logo if there's reason to suspect any unethical plans on his/her part, but there are plenty of legitimate reasons to order an instrument without a logo.

By the way, once our instruments are out of our possession, there's not much we can do about what happens to them. If, for whatever reason, someone wanted to put a different logo on one of my mandolins, it wouldn't be that much more work to take a pocket knife and dig out my logo before inlaying a new one. The peghead would have to be refinished either way, and that's the biggest part of the job.

[David Newton]

Michael Lewis said it better than me, but that never stopped me from saying more.
A good builder is on top of what's happening in the market, and micro-market: styles, trends, and above all, what he personally likes about a mandolin. If he goes with his gut on a build, what woods he has gathered, what combinations he prefers, each time he builds he will put his ideas and craft on the auction block. If he is right, it will sell right away, if not, it will languish maybe a while.
If he has to satisfy a customer before himself, it will end with grumbling before long. What if a builder has stocked in a certain wood that he got a great deal on, and expects to build with it and make a profit on it, then the customer decides he wants "moonbeams" instead, he has to buy one set of moonbeams to satisfy that customer, the extra money, hunting and buying time, etc.
I know it is being romantic and idealistic sometimes, but that is how I would prefer to work, because I trust that what I like and want to build will be accepted by at least one person, each time.

[Dan Voight]

First and foremost, thank you all for the input. Brad and I gave the offer of a 25% non-refundable refund to the potential customer and he turned it down. O well.

[David Newton]

Build the next one!