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Thread: Vega model 205?

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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    I recently acquired this nice Vega cylinder back mandolin. The previous owner thought it to be a 207 model. I think its a 205 model, however there is a reference to the 207 models as having "a lighter-finished maple body", posted here. http://bellsouthpwp.com/r/d/rdevelli...%20Mandola.htm It lacks the Abalone purfling but the binding is Ebony, not celluloid that I have seen in another 205 example. The tail piece cover is not original and would have been engraved, the cloud shape is correct though. The body is also deeper than another 205 I compared it too. The headstock is also different from what I have seen. I believe that there is a certain amount of variation within the cylinder back family. Scale length is 13 5/8". The serial number is 37184, I have no idea where this dates the instrument. It is stamped with the patent dates so it was made after Nov. 4 1913. Maybe some one here is familiar with Vega's serial numbers.

    I can't find much about them on the Internet. Bernunzio has some pictures of them but none are labeled with the model numbers.

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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Uh oh, where's my picture?
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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Picture shazam!
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    kerpow!

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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Lets try a closer view of the body.
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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    The back...
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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Side view...
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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    I think I've got the pictures figured out. Headstock rear...
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    What a beauty!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Beautiful Ivory tipped compensated bridge.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    That is a beautiful one in great shape.

    The serial number dates it to about 1919, according to the list I have. I agree that it is most likely a style 205, not 207. I am sure that there were variations over the history of the cylinder backs but the only difference from the catalog descriptions I have is the ebony (or black celluloid) binding. The catalog descriptions say "fiberloid ivory" which, I assume, is what we would call ivoroid.
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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Thanks Jim,

    The binding is Ebony, not celluloid. The wood pores are very apparent.

    One thought, discussing this with a friend that has a Brazilian rosewood 205 model, is that it might be a custom ordered 205. I have been somewhat stumped to find much information and the sources seem to be year specific as to model attributes.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (resophonic @ Oct. 02 2007, 21:02)
    The binding is Ebony, not celluloid. The wood pores are very apparent.

    One thought, discussing this with a friend that has a Brazilian rosewood 205 model, is that it might be a custom ordered 205. I have been somewhat stumped to find much information and the sources seem to be year specific as to model attributes.
    Outside of the binding, it seems to be close to the descriptions in the catalogs I have. I think the earlier ones were specced at rosewood back and sides. Later they were maple. Some have mentioned a stained maple but others do not. It could very well have been a custom one but these were upper end instruments and prob could have been made only a few at a time and possibly custom order.

    You might try contacting Paul Ruppa of the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra. He is an expert on these cylinder backs.
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    Beautiful mandolin. I've owned both mahoghany and maple cyl-backs. The maple one was in fact partially stained in an odd pattern. I prefer the one illustrated above, by far.

    Mention of pores in the wood binding makes me wonder if it might be rosewood, a fairly porous-looking wood. Ebony tends to be far less so, in my admittedly limited experience. FWIW, I prefer wood bindings to plastic and ivory; somehow more satisfying to the inner Bob.

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    I'm pretty sure it's a 205. The abalone purfling is really the hallmark of the 207. Catalogs from the time in question list the 205 as having a maple back (the rosewood backs seem to be prior to 1917), so the only thing that's unusual about the back is that it is blonde rather than the more golden brown that is typical. One possibility is a re-finish. Another is normal variation. A third is a custom order. But the fundamental features are those of a 205.

    A refinish from a darker to lighter surface seems unlikely. You'd have to get down to bare wood for the darker stain not to show and the dark binding is what you'd expect on an originally blonde-backed instrument. The neck shape most resembles that of a Style 2 bowlback from the same period, but the latter would have been mahogany. A Pettine neck from that time would have been maple but the Pettine fingerboard end would have had an extension rather than the "wave" and the inlays would have been fancier. Of course, the Pettine neck could be topped by a non-Pettine fingerboard. The Pettine fingerboard would have a shorter scale, too, I presume.

    So, all the various parts to assemble this instrument were there in the shop during the time period in which it seems to have been made. It's just the particular combination that's a bit unusual. I'm guessing that it was a custom order, with a cylinder-back fingerboard put on a Pettine neck, attached to a standard 205 body finished in the natural maple. Although this combination may have occurred as something other than a special order, it seems a bit too unusual to be a normal variant. It might have been a limited-run "special model" of some sort. But closer to a 205 than a 207.

    All in all, it's a very nice instrument that looks to be in excellent condition. Congratulations, an enjoy it!
    Bob DeVellis

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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Jim, thanks for the contact, I will send Paul an email.

    Bob A, it's definitely Ebony, not Rosewood binding.

    Bob DeVellis, thanks for your comments. The finish appears to be original.

    Have you seen other 205's with wood binding as opposed to celluloid? What type of binding was used for the 207's? Celluloid, wood, both?

    It's a wonderful instrument in great condition and sounds fabulous as well.
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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    Catalog descriptions say that "fiberloid" (i.e., plastic) was the binding material on both the 205 and 207.
    Bob DeVellis

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    Thanks for asking me into this topic and for the kind words.

    Regarding Vega Cylinder-backs, Jim G and Bob D know a ton about these instruments, so I think that you're already getting great input. I doubt that I can add much.

    Getting quickly to some of the points that were brought up so far. Using some serial number info that I got from Jim Bollman several years ago, my best guess is that your mando is from 1919 or early 1920.

    You mentioned a deep body. I have seen two basic Vega cb body sizes. The common one is 10 1/8" across at the crease and 2 7/8" deep at the butt. The mahogany back&sides, clear-top cb that I play, is 10 3/8" across and 3 1/8" deep. This bigger body sustains that sweet Vega tone, but carries a bit more volume and a little extra bottom end.

    If you have a bigger-bodied instrument, that's good.

    My knowledge of the catalog numbers is limited. I have a catalog and would be happy to share the blurbs for 205 and 207. From what I read and saw, you have a variation on the 205. Your photos indicate a very handsome instrument.

    Whether Vega did special orders as Bob D suggested, or just tinkered with their designs, I don't know. The black binding is striking and outside the norm. The bridge is really classy, but I can't say if its original. It is different from other original bridges that I have seen.

    Regarding the headstock. It is different from most cb's. Still, I have that same cut-out style on a Vega Lansing Special bowlback mandolin.

    Congratulations on acquiring a real beauty.

    Paul Ruppa

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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    Paul,

    Thanks for posting, I appreciate the input.

    The body measurements are 10 1/8" across the top but the body depth is 3". I had access to another 205 to compare it too, it was obvious (visually) that the the ribs on mine where taller as well. Mine is 2 1/4" measured from the bend in the top straight down to the back. I did not think measure the other mandolin while I had it.

    Thanks to all for the comments!
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    Registered User resophonic's Avatar
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    The catalog information Paul Ruppa so kindly sent me comes from what he believes to a 1914 publication. Now I'm wondering if I where able to locate a catalog from 1919 or 1920 I might find descriptions closer to what I've got? I pretty sure Bernunzio deals in this type of material. Does anyone have a 1919 or 1920 Vega catalog or have sources for obtaining one?
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Bernunzio's got late teens and early twenties Vega catalog reprints, fairly reasonable price: here's a link.
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