Monroe's mandolin back in court

[Scott Tichenor]

The story that seems to have no end. McLean scandal threat. It's not an April Fool's joke, but it reads like one.

A face-off in U.S. Bankruptcy Court over two of the most-prized string instruments in music history has legions of country fans on edge, while investors duped by a high-profile donor to the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum hope to get some of their millions back.

Hanging in the balance are Mother Maybelle Carter's famed 1928 Gibson guitar that many say revolutionized country music and the mandolin of Bill Monroe — considered the father of bluegrass.

Same article from the Tennessean, a bit easier on the eyes, and sad proof this isn't some ugly story someone made up.

[DryBones]

I am suprised that some of the wealthier big name country artists just don't get together and pony up the $1.5 million to make sure that nothing happens to these instruments. Do we have to start a fund raiser here for that too?

[Steven Stone]

Well, this could, can, will get messy.

Is it better for such instruments to sit in a case unplyed where the public can view them or sit in a case where a collector can view them AND play them?

IMHO opinion the important thing is that they are preserved. By who and how...Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn...

[Soupy1957]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought both of these instruments couldn't be touched, having been donated to the "Hall of Fame."
If I'm reading that article correctly in this Thread, it would appear that "Mclean" (sp?) should not be able to dig himself out of his hole by the sale of property of the museum. Or am I misunderstanding the details?


-Soupy1957

[cooper4205]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought both of these instruments would have been in the:

1) Country Music Hall of Fame
2) Bluegrass Hall Of Fame

.....and couldn't be touched, having been donated to one of these two (although I would suspect #2 as the first-and-foremost location for these), locations??

-Soupy1957

did you read the article

[Soupy1957]

yes, that's why I modified (edited) my posting....ty

-Soupy1957

[cooper4205]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought both of these instruments couldn't be touched, having been donated to the "Hall of Fame."
If I'm reading that article correctly in this Thread, it would appear that "Mclean" (sp?) should not be able to dig himself out of his hole by the sale of property of the museum. Or am I misunderstanding the details?


-Soupy1957

I think (probably wrong) that since the money was obtained fraudulently that it negates the fact it was "donated" to the Hall of Fame, but that's just a guess. and McLean killed himself last week (never a good answer to a problem). One things for sure, this is gonna be messy

[Soupy1957]

Another piece of the puzzle that I didn't know (that McLean had killed himself).
I would think that the folks who run the Hall of Fame would do anything they could to fix the mess, without resorting to the sale of valued artifacts, to satisfy debts or whatever. (Marty Stuart, are you listening?).
Too bad that folks like McLean weren't more accountible, much sooner.
-Soupy1957

[MikeEdgerton]

Another piece of the puzzle that I didn't know (that McLean had killed himself).

Soupy, that was in the article.

[Santiago]

Hopefully whomever winds up with these instruments will recognize the risk associated with holding onto them and the tax breaks associated with donating them.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is real wealth within the country music world. That doesn't mean that everyone is wealthy, it means that there are people with the means to purchase one or both of these instruments and donate them. McLean obviously didn't fall into this category. Barring a sale to a foreign entity I'd say that someone or some group will step forward and purchase these instruments and that they will be on display somewhere, just maybe not in Nashville. Unfortunately I think Mother Maybelle's guitar might be an easier pill to swallow than Bill's mandolin. They both should be preserved (obviously) but Mr. Mclean's victims do need to be made whole. I'm sure there are people that have been greatly harmed by his actions.

[bradeinhorn]

As important as these two instruments are, i think they should be sold off. People were MAJORLY defrauded here, and if this helps to defray those reimbursement costs, it is just the right thing to do.

[Domhnall]

Plus, to keep such instruments behind glass is unfortunate, they'll close up and loose some of their sound. I think the instruments should be sold, to someone who will PLAY them.

[JEStanek]

These are two iconic instruments I don't know if they should be played until they are consumed from use, accident, or neglect. Where they reside (i.e., which institution), is less of a concern to me than that they are preserved and cared for properly.

Getting them to folks who are worthy for recording purposes gets trickier that way, and certainly very political, with who holds them and who decides to loan them out. The most important thing now, I feel, is to secure the instruments and repay the debts somehow.

What a mess. It's a shame.

Jamie

[evanreilly]

I am sure the phrase 'Clear Title' will soon appear; does the CMoH have Clear title; did McLean?
This process is guaranteed to make happy only the lawyers.

[bradeinhorn]

certainly this is a good one for lawyers....

interesting legal situation actually. typically it is the art itself which is stolen, not the money that went into purchasing it. in the classic case, the museum must prove clear title through provenance records or the art must be returned, good faith or no. here there is a bit of disconnect as the money that went to purchase the art was what was stolen, not the art itself, so provenance doesn't really come into play. museums have very high due diligence standards for donations. should the museum be responsible to look into the finances of the donator? the question may become whether there was reason to suspect mclean when the donations were made.

either way, the museum is certainly put into a very clear moral dilema. as others have stated, it would be nice to see wealthy members of the country music industry step up to insure these treasures remain for the public by purchasing them for market value, or if not that, at least what mclean paid (plus interest and legal fees), to insure that amount of money is returned to those who were swindled.

[The Old Sarge]

I recall a case, several years ago, where a church had to turn over money given as a donation by a member who obtained the money fraudulently. So it isn't unheard of for creditors to attack a third party to make recovery. At the very best it is going to be a sticky situation for all involved.

[Keith Erickson]

WOW!!! There never is a dull moment around here

Well, it appears that this story was released today which is Sunday...

...and this gives the drive by media something to chomp on for a while.

Who knows what's happening behind the scenes at this very moment? However come Monday morning, I would only naturally assume that the courts will open for business as usual, while the lawyers involved are going to be filing motions to resolve these issues at a future date.

"If" the story is true and McLean has defrauded his investers of their money, the only winners in this case are the lawyers that will be arguing this in front of a judge. They will be paid regardless of the outcome.

...and the legacy of the Monroe Loar starts yet another new chapter that none of us would have ever imagined.

[Links]

The bankruptcy and trustee have a lot of power in these cases. We have just gone through something like this in my hometown, where a financial institution defrauded hundreds of "investors". The trustee (whom was paid a bunch of money) went though all kinds of "contortions" to get the investors money back, even trying to recover money from investors themseleves that had withdrawn their moeny when things started looking bad for the company. I will be real surprised if the CMHOF is able to keep those instruments without some financial help from someone. Certainly the folks that were defrauded deserve first consideration!

[Steve Cantrell]

Links, if you're talking about Carolina Investors, I agree with you. That's exactly who this guy made me think of. My grandmother lost my grandfather's life savings and is now penniless. If getting those people their money back means selling the mandolin, then sell it.

[allenhopkins]

Problem is that the instruments were acquired with the proceeds of an illegal action. Not too dissimilar to the assests of drug traffickers which are seized under Federal forfeiture. The current law allows governments to move against legitimate assets (cars, houses, businesses) that have been purchased with funds obtained through illegal actions (drug deals, frauds, etc.). Seems like Mr. McLean made his money fraudulently, so assets he purchased with these funds could be subject to lien either by the government, or by the trustee in bankruptcy. Complicating factor is that the Hall of Fame was an innocent third party; McLean didn't buy the instruments, he gave the money to the Hall of Fame, and they bought 'em. So quite probably he never owned them.

Should make an interesting case, and make some money for bankruptcy lawyers in Nashville. What has been stated above, that I really disagree with, is that the instruments should be taken out of public display, and sold to someone "who will play them." These are artifacts of two of the most influential musicians in country music, and I would say they should be preserved as such. Does someone think that Babe Ruth's bat should be taken out of Cooperstown and sold to someone who'll use it to play for the Batavia Muckdogs of the New York-Penn League? Or that the Spirit of St. Louis should be removed from the Smithsonian and awarded to a weekend pilot flying out of Teeterboro airport? Let's put the L-5 and F-5 back in their cases, so you and I and everybody can at least see them, and think about all the talent and innovation that poured through those strings and across those fretboards.

[mythicfish]

"These are artifacts of two of the most influential musicians in country music, and I would say they should be preserved as such."

Don't start with me ... you know how I get!

Curt

[dirty harry]

Hey.....
Used, enjoyed, broken and sold. It is like having your dead Uncle's shoes. Let it go people.............
James sold it, what is its value now!
Harry

[TonyP]

I'm no lawyer, but it would be interesting to see what is behind all this. Recent history is littered with white collar swindles that the little guy never got a dime back on. All I can think is it's a combo of powerful investors and weak defendants, in the case of the museum. I personally don't know where the line is with anything to do with "investing" as most of it seems either criminal or immoral to my way of thinking. McLean put the $$$ into instruments instead of junk mortgages or a million other "legal" ways of getting one over on some poor schmuck. It just seems so ironic to me, an investor donating $$ to save instruments. Maybe he was trying to make amends for his evil ways?
inquiring minds would really like to know.....

[re simmers]

Remember the Keating 5 from about 20 years ago? I think Frank Keating had millions of dollars worth of antiques that he purchased with stolen money. I think the government sold the stuff at auction, which was just a small portion of what he stole from people. Are there any similarities?

I guess non-profits will have to hire a lawyer just to accept donations in the future.

I would still like to know who has that fireplace poker. And what about the knife Bill used to gouge out the Gibson name? They should be in the Hall, too.