How old is Old-time really

[Sellars]

Hi All,

I have been thinking lately about the real age of the sound of old-time music.

The knowledge I have of Old-time is fairly limited, and comes from places like the Anthology of American Folk music (by harry smith), early string band recordings, and recordings from musicians like Eck Robertson or Dock Boggs. Plus of course some books.

The oldest of this music is from the beginning of the "popular" recording industry in the very late teens and early twenties.

My question now is: To what length is Old-Time music historically correct, and how much depends on the style and sound that is defined in the recordings.

Keep in mind that Old-Time was a commercial label used in the twenties and thirties to promote a certain style of music, so the recordings were most probalbly contaminated by the popular taste at that time.

So: Is old-Time music as we know it today the ages-old music in it's true form, or is it changed by the twenties vision on how Old-Time should sound.

Any comments?

[John Flynn]

In my view, old-time defies the whole concept of "authenticity." It is a continuum. Instrumental folk music came to this country from Europe, particularly the British Isles, trickling in over hundreds of years, and mixing with other music. Without benefit of recordings and notation, tunes were passed from one player to another, one generation to another, one region to another. So it evolved and it continues to evolve. Old time music is a folk art. Like any folk art, including dancing, quilting, wood carving, etc. "authentic" always has to be qualified with "authentic for who, when and where?"

I think what happened in the 20's is that some notable old-time tunes and players, especially some musical families in the Appalachias, did start to get the benefit of recording, notation and radio broadcast, so the music that those people were playing, then and there, became the de facto "standard." But in addition to the Appalachian traditions, there are New England traditions, Deep South traditions, Midwest traditions and others. They were always inter-related and have become more so with recording and notation, but they are still distinct to some degree.

Old-time music is not about standardization. It is about bringing people together in fellowship over music. Don't get me wrong, I think your question is a good one and I am glad you asked it. But I also think the arguments that commonly result over "authenticity" in old-time create rifts that are counter to what old-time is all about.

[Jim Garber]

Many of the tunes that came across the pond can be found in the tune books dating at least as far back as the 1850s and possible earlier. There had to be, of course, musicians playing and singing the songs that were finally recorded in the teens and twenties. This music existed way before the technology that captured it. You just can;t hear what came before. If a tree falls in the forest and you don't hear it...

Jim

[JGWoods]

Old time music, I think, is just music folks played to entertain themselves, their families and friends before the advent of recorded music. Later some of it was recorded, but recording, or performace, were never the purpose. Old Time Music includes songs like The Girl I Left Behind Me which was played by British troops in the Revolutionary War, and probably long before that. The tunes came from many places, but they wound up on the front porch and in the parlor, played by folks after a day of work, to unwind, or to pass time as a family.

Once recordings and radio came along they replaced home made music in many homes, and signaled the beginning of the end of the living period of Old Time Music- now preserved and loved by many who wish things were like that still.

It sure would be great to walk down the street and hear music coming from parlor and porch, music made by the inhabitants of the home, rather than MTV too loud on the TV.

best
gw

[jamesrenz]

"Old time" is simply another way of defining a segment of American traditional music emphasizing dance rhythms and tempos, and using primarily fiddle, frailing or clawhammer banjo, and sometimes other instruments, including mandolin, guitar, perhaps piano, etc. It includes singing and instrumentals. Much of it came originally from the British Isles and Ireland by way of Appalachia. Within the larger tradition of American music, of course, we also have numerous other forms, including ballads, blues, and hymns.

[jamesrenz]

Adding a bit more to my previous thoughts, and trying to respond more directly to your question:

The dances, ballads, and other forms of music that entered the American tradition certainly changed as they moved across the continent. In fact they went through many mutations, melodically, rhythmically, etc. As years passed they became stylized by region. By the 1920's, the time of the recordings you mention, the original sources would have long been buried in those regional variations. The music of Dock Boggs and Eck Robertson that you mention would, then, have been the sum of the many changes in the tradition that had already come before.

It may be, though, what with the great number of recordings and instructional materials new players can now draw on, that those old regional variations that provided the music a deep texture may now be fading out, giving way to what ultimately may become more of a "national" style. In Missouri, for example, where I live, there is a particular kind of fiddling handed down through generations that came to be known as the "Missouri" style. I heard it at countless regional fiddle conventions and festivals over the years. But many of the exemplars of that style, including the fiddler Cyril Stinnett, for one, are now gone. While some younger fiddlers still emulate the style, it seems like it is not nearly as common as it once was, and is becoming more of a novelty. I would suspect that the same may be happening in other parts of the country as well.

[Sellars]

Thanks for the replies!

The thing that got me thinking was that there was quite some dicussion in the Netherlands about how to perform old classical music "historically correct"

This of course has also to do with the kinds of instument you choose, but not alone. Trying to make educated guesses about the playing style etc. is far more interesting to me.

Jamesrenz said in his post that a lot of old-time is played on a banjo (either frailing or clawhammer). I think this is interesting, because the banjo is (relative to the violin/fiddle) a relatively new instrument.

It has also been said by mando Johnny that old-time defies the concept of autenticity, because it is a continuum, and a brewpot of different styles. This I find even more interesting, because what then is the difference between old-time and folk music?

For example, in folk music today it is fairly excepted to use electric instruments, newly written songs about contemporary topics, and pretty far-going arrangements of old tunes. I think if one would do this in Old-Time music, it wouldn't be seen as old-time music anymore.

Mando Johnny also remarked that Old-Time is not about standardization, and I want to say now that that is not what I am after. I am not trying to flatten it or make it more comprehensive by putting a label on it. On the contrary, for me such a discussion sort of clarifies and broadens the concept Old-time.

Think of it in a study on ethnomusicology.

for me a tantilizing question:

If Old-time music is a kind of folk music, why is it that it is ok to use different instuments (e.g. electic guitar) and contemorary songs in folk, but not in Old-Time?




(sorry for the long post, but I really like discussions like these )

[Jim Garber]

If Old-time music is a kind of folk music, why is it that it is ok to use different instuments (e.g. electic guitar) and contemorary songs in folk, but not in Old-Time?

Many people would say that it si not ok to use electric instruments in folk. In fact I have heard the hybrid terms of folk-style songs played with electric called other things such as Americana or singer-songwriter styles, etc. There is a lot of crossover in music over time so it is hard to pigeon-hole some types.

Bluegrass is a very definitive term, for instance. But then there is progressive bluegrass and some bluegrass-flavored music.

Old time music is a term that developed after the fact. Most folks would not know what it is unless you tell them, you know, the kind of musi like in O Brother...

Jim

[John Flynn]

To your points, in order, just MHO:

Banjo: The gourd banjar, or banjer, was an African instrument dating back centuries. Its existence has been documented in the New World since the mid-1600’s. What we now know as a banjo was developed, and got adopted by what we now call old-time music in the mid-1800’s. Similarly, the banjo was adopted by Celtic music, along with the bouzouki, in the mid-1900’s. I think this is an example of the evolution of old-time. By the time of the first OT recordings, the banjo had evolved to become a main instrument. I think this is just another example of my point about it being a continuum.

Old-time vs. folk music: I see folk music as a very broad, inclusive, “umbrella” term. It covers a lot of ground, so much that it is used, I think incorrectly, to describe “folksy” pop music that uses electric instruments. Old-time is very specific, in my mind, to a specific strain of European-originated string band music as practiced in rural America over the past few centuries.

Electric instruments: You could ask the same question about several forms of music that traditionally have not used electric instruments and where electric instruments are still generally not acceptable, but where there are notable exceptions. These genres would include: Bluegrass, Classical, Celtic, and Indian carnatic music. The simple answer would be that is how these genres have evolved. I don’t know about the others, but my specific answer for old-time would be that its essential character is non-commercial, community music. The quintessential setting for old-time is folks in a community getting together on a porch, unpacking portable instruments and playing just for fun. That seems to run counter to the need for amps and extension cords. Also, I think old-time just sounds its best, by far, with acoustic instruments. I have tried to play some of my favorite OT tunes on electric mando through an amp. I like to play rock through amps, but I did not like the sound of OT that way at all. Having said all that, electric instruments are creeping in. I have noticed some use of electric basses, electric pianos and acoustic-electric guitars in old time. I do not endorse that, but I have seen it. The evolution continues...

[jamesrenz]

Sellars:

When you say that "in folk music today it is fairly accepted to use electric instruments, newly written songs about contemporary topics, and pretty far-going arrangements of old tunes," how are you defining "folk" music? #I am not sure if I agree that contemporary music, acoustic or electric, is "folk" music just because it is written or performed in imitation of traditional music, music "handed down" generationally. #

Going back again, though, to "old time" music, I would state once more that "old time" is a part of the larger picture of American traditional music. #It is a music that had much of its base in the British Isles and Ireland, involves dance rhythms, and has fiddle and frailing or clawhammer banjo at its center. #It is a rural or "hill" music. #I would also suggest, re. your comment about banjo v. fiddle, that it is very possibly the banjo, with its minstrel show rhythms, rather than fiddle, that shaped the rhythm of "old time" as we know it today. #If you want to start to look for the "roots" of "old time" rhythm, listen to 1800's American minstrel music. #If you want to try to locate some British sources of fiddle melodies, find a copy of Playford's English Dances. #

As to the use of electric instruments in "old time" music, I find that most people who enjoy and who play the music feel that it is, by its nature, an acoustic music, and are drawn to it because of its acoustic qualities. #Yesterday, I sat for several hours playing the old fiddle tunes and songs with several top-notch players with whom I have worked for many years. #Our music is, and always has been, purely acoustic, and uses various combinations of fiddle, banjo, mandolin, and guitar. #There is a beauty to the sound of those instruments working together that is unique and complete. #Nothing would be gained by plugging them in, rather, I think, everything would be lost.

[LeftCoastMark]

Old-time music as a genre is just some people's yearning to keep fiddle music where it was at the advent of recording technology. As such, "Old-time" music is a museum piece, relevent for those who are members of the Society For Creative Anachronism.

In fact, traditional fiddle tunes have an untraceable lineage. Some academics speculate that some of the "Irish" fiddle tunes that became Appalachia-ized, might have been brought to the British Isles by Muslim Mercenary's in the service of the Roman Army. Fiddle tunes move around, change, grow, and evolve.

In modern times, just look at a tune like "Lost Indian". It sounds like one thing in Oklahoma, another in Missouri, and has yet another incarnation in Virginia. Different tune? No, just a tune carried around in the heads of fiddlers and played by campfires until other fiddler's picked it up and gave it their own spin. Bill Monroe "stole" it from Byron Berline, changed it's key, gave it the name "Gold Rush," and lots of us play it all the time as a bluegrass tune.

Traditional music is music anchored in tradition: Carry on.....

Old-time music is a museum piece for the black-and-white thinkers with no imagination.

Ne'er's I can tell.......

[Sellars]

Old-time music is a museum piece for the black-and-white thinkers with no imagination.

true, it is this museum piece view that I was "afraid of" so to say, and where I was talking about in the opening post. However, that is not the same as exploring the boundaries of what people call Old-Time music, and why. IMHO this can provide valuable information about the music of the people, their thinking, and their way of life.

of course one could argue to drop the name Old-Time alltogether, but I think that would be trowing away the baby with the bath water.

I very much like the idea that it is a continuum, because that inherently means that is changes over time and regions. For me that makes it even more interesting to explore the (necessarily blurry) edges, both in present and in history.

jflynnstl said: Old-time is very specific, in my mind, to a specific strain of European-originated string band music as practiced in rural America over the past few centuries.

My question now is: why string bands? What makles string bands so important? Why isn't the civil war military (copper) music included in what people call Old-Time?



Let me state again: My intention certainly is not to troll, or to harass you people with a discussion you don't want. I just find this a very exciting subject.

[John Flynn]

My question now is: why string bands? What makles string bands so important? Why isn't the civil war military (copper) music included in what people call Old-Time?

I am not familiar with the "copper" reference, but Civil War music is very much a part of old-time, although some of it is hard to pin-point. I am sure there were tunes that were written just for the Civil War, but a lot of the tunes, like "Garry Owen," went back to British Isles music, but got adopted by Army Units in the Civil War and sometimes Civil War-specific lyrics were adapted to them. So I would say that is more typical that the Civil War tunes were a spin off of the old-time continuum. When the war was over, some of these tunes, like "Cumberland Gap" continued on with thier Civil War lyrical content, still others lost thier lyrics and went back to becoming traditional tunes without a relationship to a fixed point in history.

As to why string band music: Old-time players played with what they had. Instruments that were either easy to build or affordable, and instruments that were portable tended to have the edge. Tubas fell by the wayside early on, LOL! Also, old-time seems to have its own distinct "sound" just as other genres do. It just sounds good with parlor guitar, fiddle and clawhammer banjo. More recently, other instruments have been found to enhance that sound. The glockenspiel didn't work out so well. The mandolin, the bass, the dobro, the harmonica and others have found a home, as long as they behave themselves. It is similar question to: Why is rock most often played with a drum kit, electric bass and electric guitars loaded up with a lot of effects? Because the way the music has evolved and it sounds good that way. Other instruments work also, but they generally have to blend in with that basic paradigm to work. They can't play like they might in forms of music where they are more common.

[Jim Garber]

Old-time music is a museum piece for the black-and-white thinkers with no imagination.

Ne'er's I can tell.......

Obviously, a flame-inducing comment. All genres of music as far as I can tell have fuzzy edges. There are the hardcore traditionalists and then those on the borderlines. Your definition of old time music is merely your viewpoint and I would venture to say, not wholly a correct one.

Yes there are folks who say the only music is that performed exactly as on the recordings. On the other hand you contradict yourself saying that the tunes have changed over time. I think the folk process is interesting from the point of view that the imaginations of individuals do contribute to the evolution of the music.

The same judgement would go for classical music. Why have hundred of folks produced concerts and recordings of say Bach over the years if there was not some imagination involved to put their own creativity into thier renditions? The same goes for the various players of fiddle tunes.

The best of the players I know can put their imagination into the performance of tunes. The nest of the bands have as great a synergy as any jazz band.

In addition, there are folks playing all genres of music without imagination -- even bluegrass. Yes, I know that there are some folks who want to play the music as it was without changing (assuming that it is even possible). On the other hand, it is a genre that has room for flexibility and creativity and, yes, imagination.

Jim

[John Flynn]

The same judgement would go for classical music. Why have hundred of folks produced concerts and recordings of say Bach over the years if there was not some imagination involved to put their own creativity into thier renditions? The same goes for the various players of fiddle tunes.

I think that statement is right on. I have a good friend who plays bass with a major, grammy-winning symphony. He told me that it is commonly accepted that most symphonies do not try to make the classics sound as they did when they were first played and the composers were alive. It is just not a priority. A lot has changed since composers like Bach wrote. Intonation (A = 440) is now different, music theory has evolved, audiences tastes are different, musician's training has changed, symphonies are now enhanced with sophisticated PA systems, instrument construction has changed, etc.

[jamesrenz]

Why string band? The stringed instruments involved --banjo, fiddle, perhaps parlor guitar, and later, mandolin --were mostly cheap, portable, light, easy to carry and store, and expendable. Fretless banjos could actually be made without a lot of effort. The melodies could hold up on fiddle or banjo without additional rhythmic accompaniment, and they were easy to locate on those fingerboards. Too, there was a lightness and brightness to those instruments that enhanced the dance rhythms. There would have been other instruments out there, of course: concertina would certainly have been used to accompany dancing at times, as would some form of flute or tin whistle. Piano, also, when one was available. A jaw harp would also have come to play once in awhile. But it was the stringed instruments that came to characterize the sound over time.

As to the poster's comment about old time music being "a museum piece for the black-and-white thinkers with no imagination," the same could be said about Bluegrass and the endless stream of Monroe imitators found there. There is nothing more tedious than to listen to a Bluegrass mandolinist doing the same old note-for-note Monroe licks on Gold Rush, Rawhide, or dozens of other standards at relentless yet lifeless speeds, with no variation, no independence of thought. Of course, the good players in that genre do much more than simply imitate. Rather, they mine their own imaginations to enhance and reinterpret the original sounds. In their hands, Monroe's music comes alive again. The same is true in jazz, blues and, as another poster pointed out, in classical music. And in fiddle and dance music -- "old time," if you prefer that term, as well. The good players take what they learn from Monroe, or Joe Pass, or John Hurt, or Clarence Ashley, or from the great classical scores and, drawing on their own skills and experiences, they make the music their own.