F5l's signed by bruce weber made in montana

**sachmo** · Sep-19-2007, 9:48pm

What is your opinion of the Montana made F5L's. I know Bruce Weber signed some and I think they have the bolt on Flatiron necks. Were they nothing but suped up Flatiron's, did they get carved differently, etc.

I'm in the market for a Gibson and i'm interested in hearing your opinions on these as well as the brand new line of Ferns out there.

Thanks in advance.

JM

**squirrelabama** · Sep-19-2007, 10:20pm

I have owned a Flatiron F5 Artist (Weber signed) and loved it. For the money, it was a great mando. Of the handful of Weber and/or Carlson signed F5L's I have played over the past decade (meaning tried them out, but have never owned one) I thought some of them got a decent traditional bluegrass tone, and some were not so hot. I have no idea about whether or not the tops were carved differently, however the Gibsons always seemed to have more of a pronounced/dish like re-curve. The upper end Flatirons were X-braced, unlike the F5Ls, which had tone bars. Thicker top on tone bar instrument? Not sure. Once the mando production was moved to nashville, I was VERY impressed by the tone and projection of the F5L's. If I were in the market for an F5L, I'd definitly spend the extra $$ for a Nashville made instrument. None the less, my tastes and tone requirements have developed to a point where I no longer would desire to own a factory made mando, unless of course it was made in the Mid 1920's....in Kalamazoo. Good Luck!

**Big Joe** · Sep-19-2007, 10:35pm

They were not souped up Flatirons. There were different specs and bracing. Each were nice mandolins and for the time they were about as good as you could get if you were not able to get a Loar or a Gil. Not many builders making great mandolins, and certainly not many in large quantities. They do have the same neck joint and they were good mandolins. I don't think they are comparable to the Nashville built mandolins for several reasons.

First is the dovetail neck joint. It is, in my opinion, a far better way to fasten a mandolin together. Second, the graduations and body carvings are different. The Nashville made mandolins are very close to the real Loar mandolins. Third is the finish. While a nitro lacquer was used in Montana, it was a different supplier and formula. It was also applied much thicker than it is today.

A lot of these differences are due to the experience of Charlie Derrington and the team he brought to Gibson. Few people had the skill sets and knowledge Charlie did and his team was very knowledgeable and were as dedicated to the mandolin as Charlie himself. These things all together made the Nashville days under Charlie a very special time. Both eras produced good mandolin, but they are not comparable because they are not the same animal. I hope this is not too confusing but rather that it helps explain both eras. I have owned several from each era and have loved them all. I do prefer the Nashville mandos though.

**Rocky Top** · Sep-19-2007, 11:00pm

I don't know about the F5L's, but a friend of mine has an F5G that was made/signed (yes, a signed F5G!)by Bruce and it's a hoss! A fine instrument.

**sachmo** · Sep-19-2007, 11:04pm

Joe thanks, let me say I enjoy and value your input. IMO its invaluable. How do the current Fern's compare to the CD day's. I played one the other day in VA and it was nice but the store owner was hovering over my shoulder the entire time. My point is, for around the same money there's definitly the option of a new fern. It'll have the warranty which isn't that important to me, i'm just looking for a good, special Gibson.

JM

**Ken Berner** · Sep-20-2007, 10:50am

No disrespect to Big Joe, but the Flatiron neck joints from the Montana era of Steve Carlson and Bruce Weber, have withstood the test of time. Please jump in here, folks, if you have had one that failed. Also, those who can hear a difference due to a neck joint, please speak up. Anyway, enough of that ####. I own two Flatiron Artists and one Weber Beartooth, which have been outstanding instruments in every regard; will be happy to compare them with anything.

**Big Joe** · Sep-20-2007, 11:04am

Ken...part of the problem with those era mandolins is that the neck joints can collapse. While at Gibson we had to repair a good number of the Gibson and Flatiron mandolins made in Montana. The neck joint is not as sturdy as a good dovetail. I don't know that the difference in neck attachments makes a lot of difference in tone, but on mandolins nearly everything makes a difference. There certainly is a difference in the body cavities and finish. That does not make the Montana era instruments bad, just different. They are not apples to apples. If you like the tone of your Montana instruments more than the Nashville instruments, then good for you. Many of us don't. That does not degrade yours in any way. However, from a structural standpoint, the dovetail neck joint is substantially stronger if done properly as compared to a mortise and tenon joint (even with the bolt to help hold the neck in place).

**Ken Berner** · Sep-20-2007, 12:12pm

Thanks Joe, I had not heard of the failures; I guess they were not advertised. Generally, folks with unhappy events like that will openly gripe to anyone within hearing. Thanks for your continuing education here; you ARE appreciated.

**squirrelabama** · Sep-20-2007, 12:48pm

Amen to that! Love to get the 'real-story', true facts, specifics etc., from Big Joe,,,,, not some trumped up hearsay that has travelled through the telephone game and turned into an ugly rumor. Thanks Big Joe!!

**dmamlep** · Sep-20-2007, 2:40pm

Well I am waiting for the neck to fail on mine, just a kidding, And always look for the truth as well as one can, thanks big joe. I have a 96f5L webber,montana. and honestly love the sound, As it dont sound like other ones from that era.So when I went to Gibson Nashville, there weren't many that I played that had a better sound, actually A Lawson model was close, I know Its not the loar sound, but the guy that I got it from said he sold me the wrong mandolin because it sounded better than his newer fern, most likely made in nashville. But as always I am looking for the better sound. mas full speed ahead.

**Rick Banuelos** · Sep-20-2007, 5:01pm

Just thought I should mention that in 10 years of existence, we haven't had any mandolins come back to us because of a failed mortise & tenon neck joint. Counting every guitar, Sweet Pea, carved and flat, traditional and weird, that totals 8,331 instruments. We've worked on neck problems (truss rods, fretboards, frets, nuts, broken pegheads from shipping damage, etc.), but not one neck joint has ever failed.

**Bill Van Liere** · Sep-20-2007, 5:45pm

No problems at all with my 84 and 88 mortise & tenon neck joints.

The 84 is my camping mandolin.

**Nick Triesch** · Sep-20-2007, 6:07pm

Well I see that Joe is back! #That was the cleanest slam of two great mandolin makers I have ever seen! #Are you back at Gibson Joe? # Nick:D

**Big Joe** · Sep-21-2007, 12:15am

Nope, not back at Gibson and I made nor intended any slam against my friends at Weber mandolins. Bruce is a wonderful man and builds a great mandolin. It may not be my favorite, but that does not make it any less valuable. I have no knowledge personally of issues with Weber mandolins. I can only speak of the Gibson and Flatirons from Montana and the Gibsons before the Montana era. The mortise and tenon joints from any of those era were problematic on many mandolins. Not all, but on many. I hope Bruce continues to have the success he does and my comments are not reflected to him in any way. I can only comment on what I have seen and experienced. Our repair facility was the largest in the USA and we worked on many mandolins from any era. We would get the warranty issues because we were Gibson. That probably gives us the larger amount of problem instruments with Gibson family of instruments. Not trying to be argumentative in any way, just answer a question from what I've seen.

**Shalebot** · Sep-23-2007, 4:35am

I'm pretty sure that the neck joints in the Webers of today are different from those in the Flatirons, as well.

But... I might be wrong.

Edit:

**56 Gibson Hoss** · Sep-23-2007, 8:17am

I have a Dec '94 F5L from Montana (Larry Barnwell) and it is a butt kicking hoss. I am not sure if it was made by Bruce or not. It has that good ole deep sound and great volume. I have not had any neck problem, 'tho I was cautioned about the potential when I bot it. So far, so good.
I was told to keep it out of the heat.

Check out the sound of it at
www.sntbluegrass.com

**Kevin Briggs** · Sep-23-2007, 8:34am

As usual, with this type of thread, it always seems to come down to this: http://www.soundtoearth.com/updates_mortiseandtenon.htm

From my limited knowledge regarding the matter, it seems like great innovation. Each paragraph of the description explains a point that seems of relevance to this thread. However, I'll happily summarize what I see to be the key points of each paragraph:
1. We use a reinforced mortise and tenon neck joint.
2. The dovetail is a stable joint, when done well, but mortis and tenon maximizes more wood surface contact.
3. We prefer the structural strength and simplicity of the reinforced mortise and tenon joint, as it relates to strength and neck angles, etc.
4. All of the design parameters of our mandolin body are dependent on these neck angles. We also like the very tight fit that we get from the heel of the neck to the body of the instrument.

There is more, obviously, but it's a tough read in spots. It's honestly the first time I ever read it, and I've looked at it probably a dozen times.

It seems that the decision to go with the reinforced mortis and tenon neck joint has as much to do with the entire mandolin as it does the strength of the joint. It's not a case of "we have this better way than Gibson."

Big Joe always does a good job of saying things like, "It's not better, just different." I like that, because when it comes to mandolins and any piece of art, the decisions of the artist are ultimately designed to go beyond anxiety ridden concepts such as "mine's better than yours."

**tiltman** · Sep-23-2007, 6:08pm

I have a '96 F-5 with a varnish finish that was signed by Bruce Weber. Everyone who has played it (including one very well known pro) has been impressed with the tone, playablity, etc.
It's a very nice mandolin and I'm happy with it. I'm always fighting MAS but when I play it side by side with other F-5's (including the new Gibsons) I just can't find an F-5 I like better...so the beast (MAS) has added an F-4, A-5...
Kirk

**Charles Johnson** · Sep-23-2007, 9:00pm

I respectfully disagree with Big Joe. I have owned at least a hundred Bozeman built mandolins, both Flatiron and Gibson, and have never had a neck joint needing repair. I have been dealing mandolins for 20 years and have never even heard of one failing. Not to say it cannot happen, but I have mostly lived in the South and it gets hot in Texas, Florida and Virgina. On the other hand, I have had numerous Martin guitars with dovetail neck joints needing a neck reset over the years.

Second, the best post war Gibson I have ever heard was a 1983 Flatiron, and the second best was a 1987 Gibson F5L. I have owned a number of Nashville built Gibsons, including about a dozen Master Models. The later ones are good mandolins, but the Nashville built mandolins from 1997-1999 can sometimes have significant neck problems. I have had 6 or 8 that had the truss rod replaced and the neck reinforced with graphite due to incorrect neck wood selection.

Don't let talk of neck joints, how the top is carved, etc. convince you in advance one way or the other. A good mandolin is a good mandolin. The Bozeman era mandolins can have an outstanding sound.

Trust your ears!

Best regards,
Charles Johnson
Owner,
Mandolin World Headquarters, Inc.
www.vintagemandolin.com

**Nick Triesch** · Sep-23-2007, 10:23pm

In the last 25 years I have owned two Flatiron mandolins that I bought new and that I played for many years. I never had even a hint of a neck problem with either of them. As for fit and finish I think that the Montana made Flatirons and Gibsons are still to this day put together cleaner and the finish is applied better than todays Gibsons. IMHO please. Nick

**Big Joe** · Sep-23-2007, 10:34pm

Charles...I don't think we are that much different in our opinions. The issue is not which is better in tone, only are they the same or different. They are quite different. Each person will have to determine whether the Montana era is better or the Nashville era. I have owned both and have enjoyed both.

Remeber, the Nashville mandolins before 2000 used the bolt neck design also. Many of the mandolins from the late 90's have needed repair. It was a transitional time for Gibson and they did not get the mandolin built to todays specs until later in 2000.

While you may have been fortunate to never see a problem with any of the mandolins from that era, I ran (amongst other things) the warranty and repair shop for Gibson. We saw stuff no one else sees. Especially if it is a warranty issue. We replaced or repaired a good number of mandolin from the Montana era and from the early Nashville, late Kalamazoo era. The mortise and tenon joints used in its various forms have not been the most successful in Gibson history. Since the dovetail neck joint has been reintroduced in 2000, we have not had to reset a single neck in the mandolins with dovetail neck joints. The reason Charlie went back to that was because the strength of that joint has been proven from the Loar era through the times the dovetail neck joints stopped being used.

Again, let me say the place where the mandolin was made does not determine whether it will be a good mandolin. Even the 50's, 60's, and 70's produced some killer mandolins. Each will have their own sound and each will have to determine what tone they like. It is the same as comparing two different brands, as that is essentially what you have with Gibson. It is as if the mandolins from the 60's through the mid 80's are one company, the Montana era through 99 in Nashville another, and the mandolins made in Nashville after 99 another company. Each produced some great products and each produced some dogs. Still, there are issues with the neck joints on the 99 and earlier mandolins. Not on all of them, but on a pretty good number. This is repairable and not the worst thing that can happen to the life of a mandolin any more than on a Martin, but to say it does not exist for me would be the wrong thing to do. I have no interest in Gibson. I have no stock (it is a privately held company) and I have absolutely no financial interest. My only motive is to tell what I have seen and experienced. Nothing more, nothing less.

**tiltman** · Sep-25-2007, 10:53pm

"The Bozeman era mandolins can have an outstanding sound.

Trust your ears!

Best regards,
Charles Johnson"

That is the bottom line...trust your ears.
Kirk