Reverse tuners

[red7flag]

I have a Lebeda Mandola that came with Schallers that tuned in reverse. #I replaced them with Gibson Grovers. #I was wondering if you could explain what the history of the reverse tuners is? #Is this a European convention? #Thanks in advance.
Tony

[buddyellis]

I don't know, but if anyone can tell me a source for the 'Modern'' style 'tuning key above the worm gear' tuners that turn the normal 'guitar' way I'd appreciate it. I've not been happy with the last couple sets of grovers I've gotten.

-b

[wayfaringstranger]

Buddy,

It's all in the gearing. I think that Schaller and Gotoh both make "key above worm gear" style tuners that are geared properly turn the right way. I think my Smart has schallers, although they're old, and I've seen Gotohs that work the same way.

I bought some of the grovers that were configured like the ones in the picture, only to discover that they were just "vintage" tuners with the shafts switched. They used the same gear, so they turned the wrong way. Very frustrating. I'd stay far away from these unless you like to watch people accidentally detune your mandolin while trying to raise the pitch of a string. :-)

My story had a somewhat happy ending, though: I took them apart, switched the shafts to turn them back into "classic" tuners, lubed them up nicely, and then sold them to someone who needed classic tuners and didn't mind how they'd gotten that way. They got functional tuners at a discount, and I was only out five or ten bucks and 30 minutes of my time.

[bryce]

I'm pretty sure Janet Davis sells schallars both ways (above and below) which turn the "normal" way
David

[mandroid]

European tradition ? they drive on the left, too
UK and Japan meet on the side best for sword wielding.

My Lebeda with pearly faced shallers, is different from my '21 gibby.
I reverse my thinking , the $120 tuners are left as is, perfectly installed.
all the worm gears go ////// on the button shaft
several Schaller machines, a few As 1 f, gear cut is the same on all of them , but the post and knob installation varies, only plates are flipped, r>l,L<R for above the round gear or below.

Schaller diecasts their plates and the worm gear , coming in underneath,
is held in place by a small tempered steel shim and a friction reducing plastic one.
F tuner multiple length shafts can be re arranged according to need and headstock design.

But, no matter how you flip it, a RH/clockwise screw will not become a LH/counterclockwise screw.
////// vs \\\\\\\
[turnbuckles need both]

[red7flag]

Dave Harvey said that the Schallers could be switched to turn the other way, but that they would be likely to slip and have trouble holding tune. He tried to describe the mechanics, but honestly it was beyond me.
Tony

[trevor]

Most of the Lebedas I have in stock and have sold have or have had reverse tuners. I don't know why he does this but I have never had a customer have a problem with it.

[Paul Hostetter]

There are two different definitions of "reverse tuners" that I know of:

1) ones where you tuner the button the opposite direction of normal in order to get the strings to wind up on the posts the usual way

2) ones where the worm and button shaft are below the cog (old style) rather than above it.



I'm not sure which is being discussed here. I do know lots of people install machines that were meant to have their worm and button shaft above the cog (newer style) on opposite sides of the headstock to make them look like mandolins used to look. The result is that the mechanics are reversed.

I put together a page about this here, if you'd like to look.

A number of makers offer gears assembled both ways, so there's really no excuse for having gears that have been reversed.

[buddyellis]

I know the grovers turn backwards out of the box when they are in the 'modern' tuning key above the shaft mode. I suspect that is so they do not have to re-engineer the gears on their 'vintage' set and they simply assemble them in reverse. What I'm trying to find is a supplier and part number for tuners in the 'modern' configuration that turn in the correct manner. Do those Gotoh MF40's fit the bill? Where can you get them?

[bryce]

The schallars Geoff Stelling uses on his mandolins have the tuning peg above the string post and turn counter clockwise to tighten. These come from schallar already setup this way and all you have to do is put them on your mandolin.David

[red7flag]

Paul, actually you cleared up my question, somewhat. And my question actually incorporated both. First, my mandola came with the tuners that turned the opposite direction. Dave Harvey said that one solution would be to "reverse" the turners, but he felt that having the worm and cog on the bottom sometime results in the tuner slipping. As such, that was why we went with the decision to install Gibson Grovers to solve the problem. And so if any of you know if using tuners that turn the opposite way is a European convention or when and how did the the current tuners become the standard if only in America? Thanks Paul.
Tony

[Chris Baird]

I think tuners which turn the wrong way were developed in error. Modern tuners (post 28')are made with the cog under the worm so that string tension tightens the gear mesh. Pre 28' instruments had the cog over the worm. In order for the newer post 28' buttons to turn in the right direction the gears where made with a "reverse cut". #

#A number of contemporary tuner companies started making tuners which they called "reverse cut" with the cog over the worm so that they would fit Loar style peghead reproductions. However, they failed to un-"reverse cut" the tuners. Consequently the buttons turned backwards. I've come across several different configurations of tuners which turn in the wrong direction. I've sent both schaller and grover tuners back for this reason.

#I feel that tuner buttons which turn backwards are a result of a lack of understanding what "reverse" means. "Reverse" turning buttons have never been conventional, anywhere. "Reverse cut" is the contemporary gear cut for cog under worm. The old-style worm over cog tuners would need an "un-reverse cut" to turn right.

[MikeEdgerton]

Roger Siminoff sells Gotoh tuners.

[Paul Hostetter]

Roger Siminoff sells the Gotohs in both modern and "reverse" configurations, and they're shown on his webpage and on my www~%~gear.direction page as well. I have seen Shallers both ways, so they must make them (or have made them at some point).

No one made tuners that turned the wrong way in error. People have taken their tuners which turned the right way and installed them on opposite sides of the headstock to mimic the other look, and their misguided installation constitutes the error.

[Jim Broyles]

I had an Eastman MD515 from 2005 which had tuners that turned the wrong way out of the box. I tried to figure out if I took them apart and reassembled them, flipped them and reinstalled them if I could get it to work, but it just looked to me like they would still turn the wrong way even if I did all that. I wrote Steve Perry about it and I could have bought "correct" tuners from him, but I ended up selling the mando. I all honesty, even if I did get used to true reverse tuners, I would want to change them to the standard style.

[Nuages]

...and on my www~%~gear.direction page as well. I have seen Shallers both ways, so they must make them (or have made them at some point).

No one made tuners that turned the wrong way in error. People have taken their tuners which turned the right way and installed them on opposite sides of the headstock to mimic the other look, and their misguided installation constitutes the error.

I don't understand a statement on your "gear direction" page. You write:
"At some point someone finally realized that gears functioned better if the worm was above the cog. Why? Gears always have a bit of backlash. With the cog above the worm, that slop was pulled tight by the string tension. With the cog below the worm, the string tension did nothing to absorb the slop or backlash, and staying in tune was more difficult."

I don't get it. Whether the cog is above or below the worm gear shouldn't matter a bit with respect to backlash. Either way there is metal-to-metal contact of the gears preventing the string shaft from turning in the direction of string tension, which is the main function of tuners when you're not actually turning them.

And it is not true that misguided installation is the only cause of tuners that tighten in the direction opposite of normal. I have a Janish F5 (beautiful instrument, by the way), that has such tuners, and they were clearly made to function this way.

[Chris Baird]

With F-style tuners, you can't mount them on the wrong side. They were made to turn backwards, a design error, in my opinion.

When the cog is below the worm the string tension pulls the gears together, when it is above the worm the gears are pulled apart by string tension.

[Jim Broyles]

Do they look like this and do they turn the wrong way? My Eastman's were similar. They had the worms below the cog and turned wrong. This is a shot of a Janish Fern peghead.

[Nuages]

When the cog is below the worm the string tension pulls the gears together, when it is above the worm the gears are pulled apart by string tension.

I see now - we're talking about two different forces. I was thinking about the twisting force exerted by string tension - and worm gear above or below are the same with respect to that. You're talking about the pulling force of string tension, which you can think of as puling the peghead shaft towards the bridge - that would tend to separate the worm and cog from each other, and would in theory be less of a problem with the "worm above" configuration. It doesn't seem to be relevant to modern tuner design, though.

[mandroid]

I think of the friction tuner as a reference, Paul H's picture
with the arrows has the knob turning the same way as if it were
directly turning the peg,but at a right angle, [and at a reducing gear ratio].
ie : both are shown as rotating CCW.

by contrast
my Schaller's button-wormgear, like the one shown ,below the round gear, on the F5,
when turned clockwise, turns the capstan counterclockwise.

now that thats cleared up..

... what is the definition of IS these days?

[Paul Hostetter]

Um, no. It's nothing to do with ratio, at all.



Whether the knob/worm is above or below the cog/post is immaterial - this drawing simply shows a) which way to turn the knob to b) get the post to turn in the right direction. Both arrows would be the same on modern type gears.

There were Eastman gears (I hope they sorted this out) that were completely engineered wrong.

Nuages, you still don't have the string pull issue right. I don't know how to explain it better than what's on the page, but if I get some time after the weekend I'll try. It's abundantly clear in actual practice, but I have more than 40 years working on instruments and confronting this issue time and again. It's not at all about the post being pulled forward and pulling the cog and the worm apart - nothing like that. It's about how the string pull turns the post, and what consequent mechanics are affected by that.

[Nuages]

Nuages, you still don't have the string pull issue right...It's not at all about the post being pulled forward and pulling the cog and the worm apart - nothing like that. It's about how the string pull turns the post, and what consequent mechanics are affected by that.

That's not what Siminoff says:

"...The early Gibson mandolins featured the worm gear below the round gear as shown in Fig F5 above (our part # 301G or #301N). With the worm gear below the round gear (Fig F5, above), repeated tuning adjustments and constant string tension at the top of the machine's string post tended to twist the post in the peghead so that the round gear was pulled away from the worm gear. This separation caused slack in the gears and possible misalignment of the gear teeth."

[Paul Hostetter]

What Roger is describing is legit, but it's just about wear, not about what underlies the function of the two types of gears. Again, if you're willing to wait until I have time to generate some more diagrams and a better verbal decription, I may be to explain this better, but I won't have time until later in the week.

[Nuages]

What Roger is describing is legit, but it's just about wear, not about what underlies the function of the two types of gears.

It's OK - I think we're again talking about two different ways of picturing the same problem:

Imagine a single tuner (not a plate of tuners, for simplicity), with the worm above the shaft. The two possible ways to make it "worm below shaft":

1) Without removing the tuner from its hole, rotate it 180 degrees. The worm is now below the shaft, but nothing has changed about the mechanics (however, the key shaft is coming out the wrong side, and if you made it come out the right side, it would turn in the opposite direction to tighten the string, but we'll ignore that...).

2) Remove the tuner, insert into a hole on the other side of the peghead, and rotate 180 degrees. The worm is now below the shaft, but the direction of string pull is opposite of what it was originally.

In case 1) the tuner should function exactly the same as it did originally, since all you did was rotate about the axis of the peghead shaft (it would also function normally with the key shaft pointing up vertically - it clearly doesn't matter). In case 2) the cut of the gears is wrong relative to the twist of string tension - they will work, but not well.

So, flipping the tuners from one side of the peghead to the other might be bad, but if a tuner is designed properly with the worm below the shaft, there is absolutely no difference in function compared to worm over shaft.

Given the above Paul, I still disagree with what you have on your web site about the reason for switching back in the 20's - there is no problem with the function of "worm below shaft" tuners, but there is potentially a problem that occurs with wear, as described by Siminoff.

[wayfaringstranger]

No one made tuners that turned the wrong way in error. People have taken their tuners which turned the right way and installed them on opposite sides of the headstock to mimic the other look, and their misguided installation constitutes the error.

Yes they did. Grover sells two sets of F-style tuners (one for each of the two orientations in the photo Paul posted above). The tuners with the worm gears above the ring gears are clearly marketed to be installed in that fashion, but they turn "backwards" because grover uses the same gears for both configurations.

I'm not sure how one can call this "misguided installation" when the package directs you to install them this way. Call it misguided marketing or misguided manufacturing.

I've owned mandolins with schallers and gotohs in the "worm gear above the ring gear" configuration that did turn the right way, so clearly some manufacturers get it.