Advice from a pro to a newbie! great advice!

[sstiner]

Sorry this is will be a long post but I think a great post. Been thinking about it for two weeks.

I have been playing for a couple of months now, learning from tapes and videos. I have a Eastman 605 that was voodooed by steve perry. I bought from a person in New Jersey and I am the third owner. It sounds great. (I thought) I decided to get an instructor that could help me with a few issues that I needed help with. He liked my mandolin but thought the action was high so He told me of the best guy to do the work. Dan Kalchek of Kalchek Guitars. I called and he said bring it over.

He liked it, but also thought the actiuon was high and that the fret board wasn't flat and that the strings were very wrong. But it sounded good but could be better.
He spent an hour with me talking about my mandolin and about his shop. I thought this was my chnace to ask a pro and someone who really knows his stuff about who or what was the best Mandolin that he likes! It is his answer that is the great adivce....

He started to talk about mandoilns and guitars and how it is a marriage of woods that make a great instrument. It is a marriage of woods, finish, strings and everything all being correct at the same time that makes a great insrtument, Not who made it. He looked around his shop (which had 15 guitars each one more beautiful than the next) and walked over and grabbed one off the wall and said let me play you something...Wow, he is good....The sound was pure and the tone was excellence in every way. I don't have the words to write just how perfect he played and how beauitiful this guitar sounded. The instrument was well used and missing some finish around the pick guard. This guitar didn't look nearly as awesome as so many other on the wall. Well, he played and I listened...When he finished he said" If my home was on fire and I got my family out and then my dog, I would run back into the fire to get this guitar! I own several guitars and some that cost 30,000 or more but this is the only one that I would grab. It cost $300 and I had set it up as my camp guitar and thought if anything happened to it... that would be ok.

Well, it has nothing going for it. The supports are going the wrong way and the woods are nothing special, the finish is worn and like I said nothing going for it yet some how it is perfect and I would risk everything for it." So when you ask WHO makes the best... it really has very little to do with it. It is a marriage of woods, skill and a little luck. Go out and play some and listen for the one that talks to you. You will know it when you play it. It will feel right and sound right to you and you will feel it deep down inside. You will know it when you find it."

I left with that in my head. He talked about our local maker Nugget mandoilns and others but his advice was clear, go out and find the one that is right for you and don't pay much attention to the name on the mandolin.

I went back to pick up my mandolin in a couple of weeks and he had so much to say about it. He leveled the fret board, did a full fret dressing, had to adjust the truss rod, he said it was very loose and needed major adjusting, lowered the action to 1 mm and put on a set of elixir strings and polished and oiled the instrument. It looked great! he played me a song and all I could do was smile, That came out of my Mandoiln. After getting home I played it and it is a new intrument. The sound was totally different and if I could hear it (new ear and all) that really had to be good.

Dan sets up and repairs most of the Interlochen Arts Academy instructors and students insrtruments as well as John Wunch and Don Julin (who plays eastmans) instruments. Everyone who I talk to says he is the best! So I think his advice was awesome and his work on my mandoiln was amazing.

Get a pro-set up on that used instrument you will be impressed and when MAS sets in (and it will) don't just buy a name, find the one that talks to you!

Have a great day, thanks for reading- Shawn

[Fretbear]

Good post Shawn....

[JoeD]

... but his advice was clear, go out and find the one that is right for you and don't pay much attention to the name on the mandolin.

Good advice, but it's worth pointing out that he had 15 guitars hanging on his wall. I don't get all "UGMF" about brand names, but they can be a good place to start while you're still figuring out where your tastes reside and training your ear.

[MartinD_GibsonA]

I don't get all "UGMF" about brand names

So "UMGF" is now an adjective ... I love it! #I hang out on that forum too, and the term is totally appropriate. # # #

Don Smith

[Michael Gowell]

...and that would make a substantial subset of Cafe members an unofficial alliance secretly known as the UGMF, the Unofficial Gibson Mandolin Forum.

[bluegrassjack2]

Does Dan Kalchek of Kalchek Guitars have a web site?

[Rick Cadger]

great post. glad you are a happy player.

from what i hear about Mr Perry's Mandovoodoo, i guess the slings and arrows of two previous owners have thrown his original set-up out of whack! Gianna Violins' set-up is well known and respected, but no set-up lasts forever.

sounds like you have a solid instrument there.

[rburzynski]

Yes, does he have a web site or a way to reach him.
Thanks,
Randy

[sstiner]

I don't think Dan Kelchak has a web site but Here is a link to some things he does and also I will include his number.

As I said before he sets up and repairs instruments for the instructors and students at Interlochen Arts Academy which is local here. I am actually going there tomorrow to see Nickle Creek. Can't wait.

Here the link: http://www.interlochen.org/college/guitar_institute

If you want his phone number e-mail me for it and I will pass it along. I feel funny about posting someone elses number.

As to my mandolin being mandoovooed, yes it was but it has been in the mail more than once and I don't think the sellers were very straight on how much it was played. It needed a full fret dressing and the second seller said he only played it for 10 hours or so. The first owner might have stretched the truth but they took care of it cosmetically. The big thing I would say was the fret board being high at the 13-14 frett. very high and the action was very high and the truss rod very loose. I know Steve Perry had to have corrected this stuff but I would guess someone was messing around with it. I can not say how much Dan did to this mandolin and how great it sounds!!! If it could only play itself!!!

Thanks for all your responses-Shawn

Check out Dan and Interlochen Arts Academy.

[djidaho]

I enjoyed reading this post!
An experience like that can be the difference in sticking with the instrument or letting it collect dust.

[mrmando]

Since when is Don Julin playing Eastmans? Last time I checked Don had a wonderful-sounding oval-hole Gibson.

On one level this is good advice. My main axe is by a local builder who's not well known, but I've always been pleased with it.

On the other hand, here are a couple of thoughts:

1) It's not just marriage of woods, but marriage of player to instrument. I notice this more with other people's fiddles. I'm so used to my own instrument that it's hard to adjust to the way another one feels. Even if it's a high-quality fiddle, it might take a minute or twenty before I can start to get great music out of it. So, whether it's a good fit with your physical apparatus (hands, arms, body) and playing style can make a lot of difference.

2) Well-known builders get to be well-known because they UNDERSTAND the "marriage of woods" and can consistently incorporate it into the instruments they build. They have an eye for selecting good wood, and they have the woodworking skills to properly shape the wood they select in order to get the sound they want. Sometimes, indeed, the marriage of woods happens by accident. If you went through 200 cheap Asian factory instruments, you would be likely to find one or two that really stood out in terms of tone and projection, because the cookie-cutter carving, bracing, and assembly processes just happened to be "right" for those particular pieces of wood. So let's say you have a 1 in 200 chance of getting a really fine instrument that way. (I know a fellow who has one such mandolin ... it sounds much better than it ought to.)

With an experienced individual luthier, however, you should have a much better chance than 1 in 200 of finding that "marriage of wood." In fact, if the luthier guarantees his work, you can send it back if you're disappointed in the sound.

None of this is meant to make you feel bad about playing an Eastman. They're nothing to be ashamed of. Just remember that you as a player are part of the "marriage," and that the process of wood selection, etc., isn't as mystical as your pal Dan might have made it sound.

[sstiner]

Mr. Mando I believe you got exactly what i got out of Dans words. It has more to do with the woods and skill than with the name. Buying a mandoiln just because it is a Gibson or Weber would be OK but going out and hearing others may be the way to go. he made reference to our famous local builder Nugget that when he started out his instruments were in the 3000 range now they are ten times that. Before he was a well known for his instruments the only way you would know if it was a good instrument was to go out and play one. I think that is the advice, "don't discount a not so well known builder" but get out and find them and play there instruments. You will find the one that talkes to you and that will be the one that you can't live without. Perhaps it is the journey to finding it as well....It is not just a catalog order but a journey of knowledge and friendships that is part of the hand built insturment.

As to Don Julin, He may have a Oval hole Gibson I would guess someone like him has MAS pretty bad, but he plays an Eastman and I am told he has several that he have been tweaked to his standards. The majority of his students play eastmans as well. The shop he teaches at here in Traverse City only Stocks Eastmans A-style's, as a matter of fact it is the only mandolin in the shop. I suppose they will order you anything you want but stock eastmans. Here we have three guitar stores and they all only have eastman mandolins so it is not unusual for this. We have some great builders besides nugget here in Michigan and I hope to find a Michigan made F-Style that I can call my own one day but for now I really like my mandolin, but I will take Dans advice and search for the right one, not just order it from a catalog.

Again, thanks for reading and keep on picking-Shawn

[JeffD]

I agree with what he said, but...

I don't go in for that whole organic thing - I don't think good musical instruments grow naturally like cabbage. Sure there are happy accidents - but you have to credit the luthiers for doing something - and luthiers with a reputation for doing something consistently well.

I would think a name maker is more likely going to be the one with the knowledge of the woods and the skills to put it together. Sure there is a lot of hype and legacy to some names, but on the other hand I don't think its a total #### shoot. You are more likely to find an instrument that brings together the right wood and the right construction by going to a name maker - and then of course play the thing to see if it has the sound and feel you want.

So certainly, don't just buy a name - but when you are looking for the one that talks to you, a name instrument is a darned good place to start.

[JeffD]

It was a reference to a dice game, by the way.

[James P]

"Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

[JeffD]

"Never ask a barber if you need a haircut."

I know what you mean. (And I am not a luthier. You don't want me near hand tools.)

But I was just envisioning a newbie, seeing the post - and searching the garage sales for beaters, on the chance that one of them has that coicedence of wood, construction, and compensating set up that makes it sound like gold.

Yes there may be gold sitting there between the broken fan and the water damaged encyclopedia but it seems to me its akin to looking for love in a bordello - it might be there, but its not the first place to look.

Just a thought.

[hanknc]

"If you went through 200 cheap Asian factory instruments, you would be likely to find one or two that really stood out in terms of tone and projection, because the cookie-cutter carving, bracing, and assembly processes just happened to be "right" for those particular pieces of wood. So let's say you have a 1 in 200 chance of getting a really fine instrument that way. (I know a fellow who has one such mandolin ... it sounds much better than it ought to.) "

Sounds like the way Gibson made them back in the 1920's.

[mrmando]

Sounds like the way Gibson made them back in the 1920's.

There's a certain amount of truth in that ... but the "baseline" with old Gibson A-models is much higher! For one thing, they're all 80 years old, so the really bad ones have fallen apart. I doubt there will be any Johnsons or New York Pros still playable 80 years from now. For another thing, to whatever extent you could say that Gibson "mass produced" mandolins in the '20s, it still involved more handwork than today's factory methods.

[GVD]

mrmando Posted

Since when is Don Julin playing Eastmans? Last time I checked Don had a wonderful-sounding oval-hole Gibson.

Right you are mrmando, one of the sweetest sounding snakeheads I've ever heard. It's a 23 vintage as I recall.

sstiner Posted

As to Don Julin, He may have a Oval hole Gibson I would guess someone like him has MAS pretty bad, but he plays an Eastman and I am told he has several that he have been tweaked to his standards. The majority of his students play eastmans as well. The shop he teaches at here in Traverse City only Stocks Eastmans A-style's, as a matter of fact it is the only mandolin in the shop....

I've never been to the shop he teaches at but the only mando I've ever seen him play on stage is the aforementioned snakehead. He also has a Flatbush F5 that he uses for unmiked jam sessions the snakehead doesn't have enough punch for.

GVD

[mrmando]

And a Godin, and a Mandoblaster electric if memory serves. I looked through the photos on his site ... he has the snakehead in the publicity shots, and in the performance shots it's hard to tell. One of the instruments in the performance shots looks a little deep for a mandolin, and might be a mandola ... in which case it could be an Eastman. But I'm not buying the notion that he's retired the snake in favor of an Eastman. If he has, he ought to have his head examined. I suppose I could call him and ask, myself.

Maybe there's some kind of stipulation that he use an Eastman when he teaches at the shop? Or maybe he'd rather not teach with the snake, for whatever reason.

[hanknc]

"For another thing, to whatever extent you could say that Gibson "mass produced" mandolins in the '20s, it still involved more handwork than today's factory methods."

I don't want to argue, but I'd guess that there is probably about the same amount of handwork in sstiner's Eastman 605 style as in a similarly appointed old Gibson A.

[mrmando]

Note the two examples I gave of what I mean by "factory" instruments: Johnson and New York Pro. I was manifestly not talking about Eastmans. Note also that sstiner's instrument has had the voodoo treatment and a full pro setup, and if you include those, yes, it probably does have as much handwork as a similarly appointed old Gibson A. Of course, if it had gotten more handwork before it left the building, it might not need the voodoo. Or a setup.

I haven't played anything with the voodoo treatment. The stock Eastmans I've tried were loud, but tonally they were no match for many '20s Gibsons I have seen.

[hanknc]

It sounds like old fashioned Eastman bashing to me.

[Don Julin]

Hello, I have been whatching this thread for a while and thought I would offer my 2 cents. This thread started with a story of a person in my home town with an Eastman mandolin and and set up by a local luthier. My name ( Don Julin) was mentioned as an Eastman player and I would like to clear up some things.

1st, I do own an Eastman 605 that (to my ear) has a very special something. It is by no means a "bluegrass hoss". This mando has a very thin top and is very lightly braced. Even to the point of distorting the original shape of the top. That said this mandolin has an amazing response if you keep light strings on it. As mentioned in other posts I do have a Great sounding '23 snakehead, A Flatbush V4, 2 Godin A8s, and A Mandobird. Each one of these mandos has it's own special something. I play a wide variety of music so I like a variety of sound. I also like spicy food but not chide someone who's taste went a little more to the pot roast & potato side of things. Musical instruments are very personal things and what is perfect for one person may not be for the next.

2nd, As for Dan Kalchek, I have known him for many years and he is truly an artist of world class. In fact I will be bringing this Eastman 605 to him tomorrow for a refret and a bridge fitting.

3rd, I have a teaching studio that is next to a music store (Zamar Guitar). I have suggested to the owner that he carry the Eastman line because I am very impressed with the quality and price of these student model mandolins. I currently teach about 30 -40 students and these instruments are more than a beginner model for much less money than a pro handmade instrument. I also own an Eastman Uptown 805 archtop guitar and have recently purchased an Eastman 520 dreadnought. For my money these seem like very playable instruments. I am sure there are many better instruments out there but to me, the music is more important than the name on the headstock of the instrument.

[hanknc]

Don, welcome to the Mandolin Cafe, and thanks for pitching in on this thread. I have a nice Eastman 505 at home.

Sstiner seems to be happy with his, too!

Now, let me hit the numbers tonight and I might be shopping for an old Gibson in the morning, but the Eastman will still be here!