Starting the second Cello Suite

**Jack Roberts** · May-21-2004, 10:20am

In the last measures of the prelude to Bach's Cello suite there are dotted half notes followed by 16th notes played in the same measure. #What does this mean to a Cello player? #Are they playing the same note on different strings? #I can't figure out how that would be done. #Can anyone explain this? #I am limited by the fact that I learned notation from piano and chorus in my distant past, and this notation doesn't make sense on the piano.

Also, if you want to join me in learning this prelude, please be aware that Werner Ickling .pdf files for the violin neglect to tie the notes in the first and second measure, and elsewhere, although they are tied properly in the viola and cello versions.

**John Zimm** · May-25-2004, 7:45am

I printed off the sheet music for this, and I am sorry but I can't answer your question. That is a really strange way to notate those measures. The only thing I can think is that whoever typeset them wanted to convey that the chord should be held while the notes are arpeggiated, after strumming them, but I imagine you already got that. Weird is all I have to say. I think I'll start working on this and see how it goes. Gotta love Bach.

-John.

**Tony R.** · May-25-2004, 12:15pm

I can shed some light on this for you. The answer is that Bach only wrote five bars of simple chords and it was expected that the player at the time would know that he had to arpeggiate them in a suitable manner, (and provided that you stick to the chording as writen you can virtually play any arpeggio patterns you wish, simple or virtuoso!)
I can only assume (not having seen your edition) that the sixteenths you have over the top of the dotted minims are some editor's suggestion of what HE thinks you could do.
For the record the correct notes you should have are

assuming you are playing in A minor and from the lowest note up)
Bar 59: E D G sharp
60: E C A
61: E B A
62: E B G sharp
63: A E C A
Also, in the same movement, the lowest note of the chord in bar 48 is an open d instead of an e in some of the original sources including the copy by Anna Magdalena Bach and she ought to know!

Hope this helps.

**Jack Roberts** · May-25-2004, 12:38pm

Thanks, John and Tony.

Following the advice of another thread, I have been learning this piece the last measures first, and I pretty much see that it plays by leaving the chord as it is and playing as an arpeggio. #I think if I were a cello player, this notation would be more significant, as it must be very difficult to get the fingers to the right place and leave them there on an unfretted instrument.

I looked at the alternate endings as well, and I'll try to learn it both ways.

Thanks again, and I'm relieved to find that I'm not the only one who thought the notation strange, but it does make some sense now. #

Jack

**John Zimm** · May-25-2004, 12:44pm

Thanks for the clarification. I think I saw this once before in a classical guitar book, but I haven't played the guitar for some time so it must have slipped my mind. A lot of things slip my mind these days.

I'm looking forward to starting on this one. -John.

**Jack Roberts** · May-25-2004, 8:33pm

John, this suite is "darker" than the first suite, don't you think? I am, of course, biased, but I think it sounds better on the mandolin than on the cello.(That is, I can imagine it sounding better on the mandolin if the mandolin were played by a decent player.)

Speaking of guitar, my son is trying to teach himself classical guitar now. Last night he had me playing the second part of an etude from his study book on the mandolin while he played his part on the guitar. How cool is that... I don't often get a chance to do something so close with my 13 year old son.

**John Zimm** · May-26-2004, 7:27am

That's awesome streborkcaj. My wife just started playing the guitar again and we have had the chance to play together a little recently, so I share your joy. What method is your son using to learn the classical guitar? I really had great results with the Julio Sagreras method-beautiful exercises that really helped with my technique.

I haven't had a chance to start on the second suite yet. I really think the first cello suite sounds much better on the mandolin than the cello. Those pieces really take flight on the mandolin. It is also satisfying to play solo pieces that sound so full on the mandolin. God bless Bach.

-John.

**Jack Roberts** · May-26-2004, 9:11am

I agree about the great sound of the cello suites on the mandolin. I don't know the name of the book my son is using, but he actually got up early this morning so he could play with me! I gave him a CD of Michael Newman playing Bach on guitar. Maybe I can get him away from his stratocaster and amp...

Jack

**John Zimm** · May-26-2004, 9:29am

Good luck keeping him away from the electric. Eventually, kids will want to rock.

I imagine the cello suites could sound nice plugged in, but the mandolin is still better.

-John.

**Jack Roberts** · Jun-02-2004, 5:40pm

A little progress report: I'm making very little progress.

This prelude wanders around in a magical way, but not in an intuitive way to me, so I am taking a long time internalizing this. Contrasted with the Courante of the 1st Cello Suite, which after a few days just played itself, this one is rather hard for me. I can play the notes, but I have yet to learn the piece.

Jack

**John Zimm** · Jun-03-2004, 7:43am

Originally Posted by

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A little progress report: I'm making very little progress.

This prelude wanders around in a magical way, but not in an intuitive way to me, so I am taking a long time internalizing this. Contrasted with the Courante of the 1st Cello Suite, which after a few days just played itself, this one is rather hard for me. I can play the notes, but I have yet to learn the piece.

It's funny you should mention this-I played the prelude from the second suite (or I at least tried to play it) for a couple of days, and it really didn't grab my attention. I agree with you on the Courant-it is so catchy and sounds so terrific on the mandolin that it is a joy to play. I've got to memorize that one yet.

Have you tried to play the fugue BWV 1001? I tried it for a couple of days and just couldn't get my fingers to go where I commanded them to go. I may have to save that one for another time.

Best of luck with the Prelude. I am sure it will speak to you eventually.

-John.

**Jack Roberts** · Jun-03-2004, 3:36pm

[QUOTE= (Buckley @ June 03 2004, 05:43)]

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Have you tried to play the fugue BWV 1001? #I tried it for a couple of days and just couldn't get my fingers to go where I commanded them to go. #I may have to save that one for another time. #

I stared the Bach Cello suites in December, and I can pretty much play the Suite I 'cover to cover' now. I plan to spend the next 6 months on Suite II. I've got a copy of BWV 1001 somewhere, and it looks pretty intimidating. I think I'll wait.

**John Zimm** · Jun-04-2004, 10:01am

Originally Posted by

I've got a copy of BWV 1001 somewhere, and it looks pretty intimidating.

I agree. BWV 1001 is quite a ways beyond my ability at this point.

You've got the whole first cello suite down? That's great. I only have the Prelude memorized, and I can play through the Courant with the music in front of me. That is a great suite. Maybe I'll try and memorize the whole shebang over the next few months.

-John.

**Jack Roberts** · Jun-17-2004, 9:56am

I am still far from being able to play this piece, but after almost a month at it, I am beginning to appreciate the structure in this Prelude. For some reason, it is hard to "hear" how the piece is structured when listening to a cello recording, but playing it myself on the mandolin, I am beginning to understand the way Bach put it together.

Perhaps a musician (I am a chemist) can explain it better, but Bach has constructed a series of broken chords, starting out in Am that lead from one to another, sometimes tending toward a satisfying resolution, but more often taking another direction, until it finally ends again in Am.

Because nothing is repeated and there are no obvious chord progressions, and there are no places in the middle to stop, it is hard to learn. But it is getting to be more interesting as I understand it better.

Jack