16', 21', 33' gibson a

[jakobmarly]

Ok, my first ever post. I recently picked up an old Gibson A. After looking at many websites that discuss these old instruments I am trying to find out exactly what I've got. Firstly though I have to say it blows my MM50 clean out of the water so in that respect I am delighted
The serial number looks like #20958 placing it in 1916. However the stamp on the inside is clearly #11424 which is logged on the mandolin archive as a 1921 sheraton brown A.(if that is indeed the stamp they are referring to)
And now I am confused. The mando fits the description of the sheraton in that it has a paddle head and no truss rod. it also sports an adjustable rosewood bridge (not sure if that would make it a replacement) however it has a sunburst finish more common to an A5, the pickguard also looks like it came off a 30's instrument.
Any suggestions as to what sort of ####### this baby is.

[danb]

Can you post a picture? Sounds like maybe a refinished teens A

[jakobmarly]

ok

[jakobmarly]

and another

[jakobmarly]

and finally

[danb]

The pictures are a bit on the small side, but I think that is an a model from the teens refinished in a sunburst at some later point

[jakobmarly]

was there a fashion for sunburst at some point? and what would the original have looked like?
seems a shame to have changed it. i cant understand how you could actually do the work without damaging the bindings and soundhole ring. also would the work be done by gibson? its very dark looking apart from a small ring in the centre. still a beast though

[danb]

Well it was quite common for Gibson to refurbish their own instruments over a considerable time period. An A4 from the period would have had a red sunburst, so I'm guessing it was done sometime 1930s or later from what I can see there. I don't see the binding on the back or the fleur-de-lis on the peghead that would show it to be an A4.

The stamp number & serial number combination are indeed a mismatch, that's a bit odd and difficult to explain without larger more detailed images

[jakobmarly]

some bigger shots coming

[jakobmarly]

1 more

[jakobmarly]

1 more

[jakobmarly]

and another 2

[jakobmarly]

finally

[jakobmarly]

my own onterpretation of the mismatch in numbers would be that the paper label had been tampered with rather than the inner stamp. which would put the mando up in the early 1920's. does the model allow for such a possibility and could thet make the bridge an original?

[danb]

Hmm. Well that sort of deepens the mystery a bit. The finish looks like a somewhat typical A4, though this does not have back binding or the peghead inlays of an A4. It looks like a plain "a" from the peghead and body binding, both of which are less likely to be changed than the finish pattern on the top.

You are correct that the FON/Stamp is less likely to be modified than the label. It's possible the original label fell out and another was put in. Under that label is usually a pencilled-in serial number, but it's not really a normal procedure to remove that to check.

The bridge does not look like an original to me, a Gibson one would have smaller adjusting wheels and usually was polished jet black with an ink-based varnish. Some of them vary, but I would guess that what you see here is likely a refinish done at the time that some crack repairs on the top were done on the bass side.. the sunburst helps to cover up the joins cosmetically as the dark area is over the glue joins.

It's possible it was a gibson factory repair/refinish, the sunburst does look like a late A4 style

[jakobmarly]

so do you think this is a '21 A, which I think would put it just before the truss rod was introduced

[danb]

well, the ball ends of the tuners look like mid teens vs what tuners from 1921 would be.

Are you 100% positive on the stamp number? Is the last 4 possibly an A? sometimes there was an "A" appended to the FON

[jakobmarly]

you know a case could be made for it being 1142A - there is enough doubt - would that match it to the serial no. be nice if it did. one thing that made me think it was originally a sheraton was the stle of the sound hole ring. most of the teens i've seen are orange tops with that sort of broken line round the sound hole. would the ring be replaced when the finish was redone?
one final question; what type of bracket should a teens pickguard have?

[Darryl Wolfe]

My input: Sent back to the factory in the early to mid thirties to repair the top cracks. New rosewood fingerboard, bridge and pickguard installed. Everything they did then was that type of sunburst. Original mando was a teens straight A

[jakobmarly]

That makes a lot of sense. I've seen A5/50,s from the era and they do have all the same hardware as the old A. It must have been in some state to require all that attention

[danb]

Good summary from Darryl. I was drifting that way, but the serial & fon still don't match up. Factory stamps for serials 19000 to 22000 would be in the range of 2200-2400. If it's 1142-A that corresponds with much later serials, in the range of 98000.

Bit of a mystery really. The peghead shape and tuner posts with round ends agree with teens and the label, the stamp makes little sense though.

The original guard would be a clamp (should have some scarring visible under the guard screwed in now on the side) for teens, or a screw-in if it's 1925 (81xxx) or later.

[jakobmarly]

there is no sign of scarring on the body but I'm sure the amount of work this mando has seen would render any obvious evidence doubtful (no i am not a lawyer) I run a studio www.carltonstudios.co.uk . As long as I have a decent machine I cant complain. But I cant for the life of me figure this mystery out. I appreciate all the input so far ad cant believe the interestng info that has entered my heid.