Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 70

Thread: Gelas mandolins

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Acton, Massachusetts
    Posts
    339

    Default

    I took advantage of a family trip to Rochester last month to visit Bernunzio’s, to check the place out and more specifically to look at their bowlbacks. They seem to be one of the few retail outlets that keeps a good number of bowlbacks in stock.

    They were very accommodating and I played a good section of their mando wall. Certainly worth a visit if you’re in the area. The only bowlback that took my fancy has since been sold (a Ciani). As I was getting ready to leave they said “you might want to try this one out too” and handed me a Gelas mando from the 1920s. Bernunzio’s describes it thus: “ca. 1921. extremely interesting, French made instrument with tear drop shaped body; Curly European maple back and sides; amazing double spruce top with interior vibrating chamber; oval sound hole 13-1/4 inch scale with neck joining at the 10th fret.” It’s a bizarre mando with a double top. The fretboard rests on the upper level, which extends to the soundboard and slants down towards the flat full top of the instrument. The result is that it looks like it has a reverse cant, like a “typical” old bent-top instrument but backwards; it bends in rather than out (there is actually nothing bent, it just looks like it). It has a very unique and cool sound and I was quite taken with it.

    Thanks to Alan’s posting about his new Octofone, I found out that Bernunzio’s was having a clearance (thanks Alan!) . This was marked down about a third, and I just took the plunge and ordered it.

    A web search reveals little about the maker, other than he was French and made guitars and harp guitars as well.

    Can anyone provide more info about these? Thanks for whatever info you can provide.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	gelas1.jpg 
Views:	718 
Size:	95.2 KB 
ID:	23998  

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Acton, Massachusetts
    Posts
    339

    Default

    another foto
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	gelas2.jpg 
Views:	492 
Size:	102.4 KB 
ID:	23999  

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Acton, Massachusetts
    Posts
    339

    Default

    the back
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	gelas4.jpg 
Views:	435 
Size:	79.1 KB 
ID:	24000  

  4. #4
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,431

    Default

    Nice to see somebody actually having one of these. #If you do a search here on the Cafe, you'll find we have discussed them a few times, for example here. #I tried a couple of times to pick one up on Ebay for lowball bids, but haven't managed yet. #I'm sort of curious to try them, as they seem to have been very dominant in France for a period of several decades, but not curious enough to actually spend much money.

    From the various Ebay instruments, it is clear that apart from Gelas himself, a considerable number of French luthiers built these instruments under license from Gelas to use his patented system. #It is also clear that they were first introduced around 1910 and were still built in the 1970s, so they must have been rather more than a flash-in-the-pan curiosity.

    Martin




  5. #5
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    6,286

    Default

    They also made Hawaiian guitars:



    Martin, are you sure they were made into the 70s? I don't think I've seen anything post WWII.
    .
    ph

    º º º º º º º º º º º º º º º
    Paul Hostetter, luthier
    Santa Cruz, California
    www.lutherie.net

  6. #6
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ June 13 2007, 12:19)
    Martin, are you sure they were made into the 70s?
    This one is said to be from 1973, for sale at a Dutch dealer for 325 Euro. Has been there a while.

    Martin
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	010006nr2.jpg 
Views:	422 
Size:	75.1 KB 
ID:	24001  

  7. #7
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    Lucien Gelas is the inventor of these oddballs. I think, however, he prob had these built under his license. I have a few earlier ones with a Gaudet label and others a little later with a mysterious "JR" on the label. All say "Mandoline Gelas".

    Here is one at Sinier de Ridder by Jean Roviès, n° 3911, Paris 1923 (prob the aforementioned JR).

    Another maker of instruments in this style was Louis Patenotte. There is a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Mandoline-Louis-Patenotte-Gelas-m-2-Resonanzboeden_W0QQitemZ300070869461QQihZ020QQcate gory
    Z21591QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Patenotte mandolin</a> for sale right now on eBay Germany.

    I am not even sure if Gelas ever had any with his own label on them. I have misplaced my copy of Alex Timmerman's book in which there is one. I will check in it to see if it was actually made by Gelas himself.

    Jim



    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  8. #8
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Santa Cruz, California
    Posts
    6,286

    Default

    I know Daniel Sinier and Françoise de Ridder (what a shop!) a bit and the Hawaiian was theirs. I have a word out to my pal François Charle, who is extremely close with them (he owns their old shop in Paris) for some clarification. He should know.

    Seeing this label simply tells me it's in the style of Gelas, not necessarily licensed:



    It's like "Maccaferri" guitars.
    .
    ph

    º º º º º º º º º º º º º º º
    Paul Hostetter, luthier
    Santa Cruz, California
    www.lutherie.net

  9. #9
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    I believe that "brevetée" means patented. Since there is mention of th4e patent on the label I would think that there was some sort of agreement for making these in the Gelas style between Gelas and JR.

    I have a pdf of the actual international patent that Gelas received in 1906. I tried to post it here but it would not work.

    I would be very interested in what Mr. Charle has to say on the subject. That hawaiian is a beauty, Paul.

    Jim



    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Acton, Massachusetts
    Posts
    339

    Default

    Thanks to everyone for the input. During my visit to the shop I did not inspect for a label that would indicate whether it was a Gelas Gelas or a somebody else Gelas. It'll arrive next week and I'll post more info.

    I guess if these were made for at least 50 years by a variety of manufacturers under license, its hard to generalize about them, especially give how rare they seem to be. The few photos I found show variation in design, including the bowlback model at the sinier de ridder site.

    I hadn't contemplated until reviewing the old threads that the string pressure on the bridge is up - making it an even more bizarre design than I'd realized.

    Jim, I found that patent in my web search. When you said "I have a few earlier ones" were you referring to photos or mandolins?

  11. #11
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    I have a '32 Gelas bowlback, with original case, all in excellent condition. I don't think it was played much. It even came with a student book, nos strings, and a little bag of picks. The bowlback it's self it hard for me to hold, but then add the "whale tail" from the double top, it's lap full. I do love the tone. All I'd ever played before it was cheap no name and Washburn bowls, and didn't like them at all. There's a lot of stuff about the Gelas that seem modern to me, like the neck profile and the tone. The other bowls just didn't fit my hand. But from info here I've gleaned, Gelas is not a accepted or sought after brand. Too radical?




  12. #12
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default

    Holy smoked eels, a Gelas mandobass on eBay...
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Acton, Massachusetts
    Posts
    339

    Default

    Tony -

    From reading the various threads, it seems like hardly anyone on the board, or at least anyone who has commented on them, has played one. The only comment in the threads, other than yours, about tone described it as "lovely." What little notoriety they have among the cogniscenti seems to derive from interest, or perhaps bemusement, about their construction. I'd never heard of or seen a Gelas before stumbling into this one. My decision was based on ears rather than pedigree. They may be too rare, at least on this side of the pond, to have penetrated mandoconsciousness to the extent of being an “accepted” brand. Maybe we can start a movement.

  14. #14
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    6,281

    Default

    A Gelas sold a couple days ago on ebay.fr. #I was watching it but had my head under the hood when bidding ended. Though it needed some work it went for a moderate price it seems:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1

    Curious looking mandolins. #I love to try one out one day.

    Mick



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Gelas.jpg 
Views:	540 
Size:	19.8 KB 
ID:	24058  
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  15. #15
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,431

    Default

    For that price, I would have bid for it, too, but I didn't see it. Mind you, what happened to this one is what seems to me inherent in the design: the fixed bridge is pulled up rather than down, and eventually the string tension just pulled it apart. Might be quite tricky to fix, especially without having an intact one as template.

    Martin

  16. #16
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    Mine was bought for me by a friend at my old job(he was a engineer, French owned company, here in the US) who was French. While back in Toulouse he went into a couple of antique stores, and each one had a bowl. This one was in the nicest shape, and the original case, so he got it for me. He was a musician too, but was not really versed in mandolin's, being an accordion player.
    Needless to say I was shocked on several levels. First that he'd given me a mando, and then opening the case to something I'd never seen or dreamed of. It didn't take long to see, looking at it, that it was unlike any instrument I'd ever seen. At first I thought the top had collapsed or something. But then started looking close, and was amazed. Personally I've always been amazed from strictly an engineering standpoint that you could get any sound out of a regular bowl, what with the usual crease right behind the bridge. It's counter intuitive to do that as it turns the area right behind or close to the bridge stiff. That's why they put creases in large expanses of sheetmetal to make it stiffer. Well here comes Gelas, not only addressing what on the face of it is a design flaw, but then going even further making the only instrument I know of that the top is not in compression, just the opposite! For the company being around for so long, there doesn't seem to be that many around. I saw one like mine that was on a mandolin dealer's website. He called it a double table, and said it was professional grade. Certainly, not all his bowls had that grade, actually just a very few.
    I had to put some lube on the tuners as they'd not been touched in who know's how long. Tuned it up and even with the totally encrusted strings sounded good. Very balanced(amazingly so) and as far as the neck, was easy to play. No cracks and just minor scratches in the bowl and case. I've toyed several times about getting rid of it to someone who like bowls and would appreciate it. I just don't play it

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,811

    Default

    Not only does the crease, or cant, make the top stiffer, but in fact the top of most bowlbacjks has an arch built in, to further stiffen the top. This makes for a very strong design, so long as no part is conmpromised, and is a determining factor in the sound. It's how they could build extremely light instruments that would still resist the many stresses imposed by the string tension.

  18. #18
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (morgan @ June 13 2007, 11:54)
    Thanks to Alan’s posting about his new Octofone, I found out that Bernunzio’s was having a clearance (thanks Alan!) .
    You're welcome! Enjoy the weirdness of your Gelas, and if your travels ever bring you to Rochester again, look me up. I'd love to see how the mando works out.

    Did I mention that Bernunzio has a "prototype" of the Eastman mandocello in his store now? Maybe, now that the Jazz Festival is over and the place has cleared out a bit, I may take a spin down there and try it out.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  19. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (morgan @ June 14 2007, 12:30)
    When you said "I have a few earlier ones" were you referring to photos or mandolins?
    I have photos of these. I do not own one. They are rare here in the US but more common in France and in Eurpose in general.

    Jim
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  20. #20
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (mrmando @ June 15 2007, 13:09)
    Holy smoked eels, a Gelas mandobass on eBay...
    Holy smoked eels, indeed! There must be a glut on the market. How rare can these be with two (count 'em) mandolones (mandolini in Italian?) for sale at once.

    1933 Gelas Mandolone

    This one has the more std JR label and a much lower starting bid.

    Jim



    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  21. #21
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ June 16 2007, 09:59)
    Holy smoked eels, indeed! There must be a glut on the market. How rare can these be with two (count 'em) mandolones (mandolini in Italian?) for sale at once.

    1933 Gelas Mandolone
    But this one is a mandocello, surely? It's 118cm length overall, and eight strings. The mandobass is 150cm long overall, scale 100cm, and four single strings.

    Now, if we get a mandola, we'll have a quartet on Ebay.

    Martin

  22. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    France
    Posts
    657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (TonyP @ June 16 2007, 01:10)
    ...Well here comes Gelas, not only addressing what on the face of it is a design flaw, but then going even further making the only instrument I know of that the top is not in compression, just the opposite! For the company being around for so long, there doesn't seem to be that many around. I saw one like mine that was on a mandolin dealer's website. He called it a double table, and said it was professional grade. Certainly, not all his bowls had that grade, actually just a very few.
    "Gelas" was not a company, but a double top patent for whatever string instrument.
    brevet = patent
    breveté = patented



    "Bonjour chez vous!"
    Phil.
    Wondergrass
    MoonShine

  23. #23
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default

    And here's another Gelas mandocello for sale, this one in Belgium.

    So, then, two mandocelli and a mandobass, all on eBay at the same time, in three different European countries. Maybe an EU ban on the sale of Gelas instruments is about to take effect, and these shops have to unload their stock.
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  24. #24
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (mrmando @ June 18 2007, 00:32)
    And here's another Gelas mandocello for sale, this one in Belgium.
    "A great addition to your Gelas collection", indeed.

    What's the grey spot on the soundboard? #Some sort of mutilated pickguard?

    Martin




  25. #25
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    Just another example of how "rare" these are. I have a feeling that they made quite a few of these.

    Jim
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •