Monroe

[johnM]

I'd like to pose a question without ruffling too many feathers.

What in your opinion were Big Mon's best years on the mandolin. I have several compilation recording, some songs are fantastic and some are just plain rough.

Now please, please, please don't yell at me. I think he is the complete master of his instrument and he single handedly built the bluegrass sound from scratch but i'm of the feeling not all his recordings were top notch.

If someone wanted to dive into his style where would they go to get the best of the best.

Thanks to all in advance.

JM

[f5loar]

I would start with his 3 instrumental LPs. Bluegrass Instrumentals,1965; Bill Monroe's Uncle Pen,1972 and Master of the Mandolin,1981. These would represent his three periods of creativity on mandolin instrumentals. If you want them on CD I don't think they came out on single CDs and you have to get the Bear Family boxsets to get them. And add to these 3 the Kenny Baker plays Bill Monroe which is on CD. I don't think you'll find a rough in the lot.

[cooper4205]

he did some might fine playing in when he had the "city-boy" bands. I've got some live recordings too from the mid-50's through the late 60's with some strong playing by Big Mon, especially around the time he hooked up with Ralph Rinzler. I guess I just like the way he played during this time the best, he seemed to get even more bluesy and his playing just seems more powerful to me during that time. I'm also interested in hearing what others have to say about it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'd certainly go with Tom on the 3 records he listed above.I have heard a few tracks from the last 2,but i have the original ''Bluegrass Insrumentals'' LP on Decca & the re-issue on MCA & his playing on that is masterly. I have Bill Monroe's live performance CD & i have to admit that the performances of songs on there aren't what you would expect from a 'studio'recording. I get the impression that he played well enough to 'get through' without any ''virtuosoistics'' as it were - i just wish that i could play as well as he does even then.
I can't understand why these records were not re-issued on CD in their own right,'Bluegrass Instrumentals' is a classic album. ''Bluegrass Time'',the album he recorded with the 'Citybilly'' band,Lamar Greir,Richard Green,Peter Rowan & James Monroe, is also long overdue for re-release,
Saska

[evanreilly]

'Blue Grass Time' will not come out as a CD. It is included in the Bear Family box set.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The problem is with boxed sets is that many people who already have most of Monroe's recordings will inevitably duplicate what they already have.No one wants to spend cash
doing that when all they want is maybe a dozen or so songs / instrumentals.I have many
LP's of Bill Monroe bought in the early 60's & also several CD's. No way would i fork out cash for just the few numbers that i don't have if they are only in an expensive boxed set & i suspect that lots of folk will think the same way. Re-issues of the original individual LP's on CD,especially with the original cover photos, would have much more appeal i think - but that's just my opinion.Fortunately i have the 'Bluegrass Time' LP,
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Saska

[Rick Schmidlin]

The Flat and Scruggs years.

[grassrootphilosopher]

John and y´all,

is there any way we possibly could coin the phrase "the best years for mandolin" when it comes to Bill Monroe´s picking?

It has been said before but I would underline that over the 50 plus years of bluegrass (starting out with the early no banjo Blue Grass Boys [and girl]) there are apparently several of Bill Monroe´s different aproaches to pick his mandolin.

The first years up to maybe 1949 you have a sort of a swing related mandolin style which is smooth as they make it incorporating just perfectly beautiful syncopated runs and licks.

Starting with the Jimmy Martin years when the singing got harsher (due to the fact that Jimmy Martin sang in higher keys and the tone started to get "lonesome"), Bill Monroes attack to the mandolin got more agressive up to a point where - I think - the blues just yelled at you. No more swing, swaggering and easy going. You can clearly hear the hard times that Mr. Monroe experienced.

The citybilly time with people like Greer, Greene and Rowan apparently challenged Big Mon a lot which is clearly showing in his playing. Hence the overall effect of the recordings are very pleasing. His playing style starts to smoothe out the rough edges (the blues that is).

In his years say from 71 to his cancer years I would say he started to pick more straight which has the effect that the complexity/blues does not trouble you so much.

In his final years - and the homespun video is a prime example - his playing became like stecilwork. It hinted musical ideas, broadbrushed themes, made you guess. His picking might be compared to the paintings of a late Dali, Jackson Pollock, or Edward Hopper (personal impression).

The secret of even the most -seemingly- simple kind of picking appears to be the timing and the shift and change of the melody/chords. If you take the Homespun video for example, his playing seems so simple, but when you try to follow, Bill has allready gotten the better of you because of his unusual way to set the notes of the melody. So don´t be fooled there. In none of the above mentioned periods have I found anything faulty in his mandolin picking.

Therefore I might conclude that I am unable to compare his picking with respect to determine which of his styles is the best.

This is what I have to say as far as personal taste is concerned:

I like the Flatt & Scruggs period best when smoothness of his playing and the swing feeling is concerned.

I like the Jimmy Martin and following period (especially the wonderful Edd Mayfield) the best when it comes to picking some of the wildest blues that I´ve heard.

I like the citybilly period the best when I want to listen to a chalenged and spirited mandolin champion.

I like the 70ies period the best when it comes to Monroe without rough edges.

Finally I definately like his last years on earth when it comes to some of the dearest musical sketches that I´ve heard - and I had the chance to listen to him at the Ryman once -.

It´s all a matter of taste I guess. I like the picking of many of the other mandolin greats too (boy howdy can Bush, Grisman, Wakefield, Rinzler, Skaggs, Lawson, Steffey ... pick) but it always feels like coming home when I listen to the unique and original mandolin of Bill Monroe.

Now if you look at which recording session might be the best that´s an entirely different story because here we would have to talk about the tightness of the band, the recorded material, the playing of the fellow musicians and such. But since this is off topic I will not go into an obiter dictum.

[Peter Hackman]

A good compendium of Monroe's solo style is the gospel album
I Saw the Light, because the mandolin is the only solo instrument,
apart from a few intros and interludes on organ.

(some of the earlier gospel recordings, like Working on A Building,
He Will Set Your Fields on Fire, also have lots o mandolin).

My favorite is I Am a Pilgrim, in the key of B, where some
of the slurs and inflections
in his voice and mandolin seem to echo one another.
Possibly his best vocal number on Decca.

[AlanN]

Hey Tom, how about his 'Best Dressed' period? Like on the cover of Bluegrass Time, that jacket, which I think is on display in The Blue Rock Cafe? lol.

[Klaus Wutscher]

Olaf, that was an interesting assesment of Monroe´s playing, esp. regarding his last period- while many call his 80ies- 90ies playing "sloppy" (and I can see what they mean), I always felt that somehow there seemed to be more notes sounding than he actually played, almost spooky at times...


On a side note, are you by any chance playing in a band I could have heard(or missed) at EBMA the last couple of years?

[jmcgann]

Don't overlook the Monroe Brothers (pre-Bluegrass Boys) material, which has some mighty fine mandolin playing.

Some of the "rough" stuff that is nearly impossible to imitate accurately is totally great as well- just not as easy to copy

[Perry]

That Dusty Miller on the Homespun tape is KILLER.

I read somewhere that there are outakes from those Homespun sessions. Boy would I love to watch that!

Anybody got those?

[johnhgayjr]

Here's a video from Butch Robins' site. #The description says its from 1980 - looks like Austin City Limits. #That's my favorite lineup of the Bluegrass Boys - I guess because its the group I saw live several times - Wayne Lewis, Butch Robins, Kenny Baker... #That's a pretty powerful group right there. #Monroe is wearing it out.

http://www.unklebutchie.com/Media/Video/Kentucky.html

John Gay
Memphis

[grassrootphilosopher]

Klaus,
I wouldn´t call it spooky, it´s more of an inexplicable experience that through his picking the listeners (in this case my) mind seems to open up more and more and your understanding of music expands as does the playing skill if you take what you heard as a shot in the arm/wrist/fingers/pick.

I also understand the reason for the "sloppiness" criticism. I guess we all have to face the fact that age takes its toll on us. I have seen Bill Monroe in 1994 and I sure enough wish that I´ll be able to pick the way he did when hopefully I reach the same age.

You may have seen me at the 2000, 2001 and 2002 EWOB-Festival at Voorthuizen NL with my band The Lousy Stringband and in 2005 soloing and 2006 (with Gabi Weber on bass and guitar) at the EWOB-Festival at Voorthuizen NL as The Grassrootphilosopher. In all these cases I may have caught the eye as being the only there one to pick a Strad-O-Lin that to my humble ear sounds as good as they make them. At this year´s EWOB-Festival where I was mostly doing some jamming I had my 1 year old Duff with me. I guess you´re talking about the EWOB.

Did a lot of jamming with a lot of people there. I saw Mandolin Cafe´s swampstomper just once this year, failed to meet up with our Jeroen and possibly missed a bunch of others.

Have you made your way up from Austria? Just shoot me a mail if you go to Caslav (CZ in June for the Banjo Jamboree). I plan to be there and it would be a pleasure jamming with you.

[evanreilly]

Bill Monroe's best years musically were from 1936 til 1996.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

Amen

[sgarrity]

Yessir, not a bad year in the bunch!

[fiddler59]

Man the sound of the E string on Monroe's mando was awesome. I played Mike Comptons Gil and it was very similar. I had the opportunity one time to play Monroes mando briefly back in the mid 70's and the strings were so high it was really hard to get anything out of it. It is raelly hard for me to pick a favorite period of his playing. I have a huge appreciation of all the different periods. He was a true renagade...

David Blackmon

[evanreilly]

A more specific question about Monroe's mandolin playing may be related to which band of the BGB you like best. One of my all time absolute favorite bands is band that recorded only two songs, which came out on a 45RPM. 'Christmas Time's A' Comin' and 'First Whippoorwill' featured the duets of Monroe and Edd Mayfield, and the banjo playing of local North Carolina BGB James Gar Bowers.
Monroe's kick to 'Whippoorwill' has been one of my most favorite breaks, and he even does backup behind the fiddle and banjo breaks, something he very rarely recorded.
He does a similar backup behind the fiddle break on 'Christmas...'; his backup like that indicates to me, at least, that he liked the way the band was carrying itself and he felt free to play mandolin backup behind them, rather than just chop.
Recorded October 28th, 1951.

[MikeEdgerton]

Bill Monroe's best years musically were from 1936 til 1996.

You beat me to that

[dasspunk]

Bill Monroe's best years musically were from 1936 til 1996.

This is not a copout. Monroe was an incredible player... impressive at every milestone. Pre-grass, Bluegrass, Young and Old. Amazing. Truly. And IMHO, absolutely impossible to over-hype... though obviously I try.

Now, as for favorite bands... it is quite difficult to beat his time with Lester and Earl... but I'd be open to the argument.

[Glassweb]

You're ALL right on this topic... it's all amazing! And even better is the fact that it continues to amaze at even higher levels the more you listen to it. After listening all these years I feel that nobody even comes close to his depth of emotion... unreal! And just think of the body of work he composed, arranged, recorded, sang and played on... YIKES! Hey Evan... Steve Brown here in Florida... Maybe you can answer this... what kind of mandolin was Monroe using when he recorded Big Mon on the classic Bluegrass Instrumentals LP? Thanks!

[Peter Hackman]

You're ALL right on this topic... it's all amazing! And even better is the fact that it continues to amaze at even higher levels the more you listen to it. After listening all these years I feel that nobody even comes close to his depth of emotion... unreal! And just think of the body of work he composed, arranged, recorded, sang and played on... YIKES! Hey Evan... Steve Brown here in Florida... Maybe you can answer this... what kind of mandolin was Monroe using when he recorded Big Mon on the classic Bluegrass Instrumentals LP? Thanks!

Monroe used an F4 on that session (this exception to the rule
is noted in Rosenberg's discography).

Big Mon
Monroe's Hornpipe
No one but my Darling
Gotta Travel On

[evanreilly]

Steve: Peter is correct. And I believe the F-4 belonged to Connie Gately. You can hear the difference between the F-4 and the F-5 pretty clearly on that 'album'.